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Author Topic: PSE ACR histogram highlight clipping point moves right with increased exposure  (Read 3259 times)

Frans Waterlander

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When you increase exposure in the Photoshop Elements ACR converter, the highlight clipping point shows up when you start to blow out the highlights, as you would expect. However, when you continue to increase exposure (yes I know, it's not really exposure you increase that way) the clipping line grows, as you would expect, but the line moves to the right. I estimate the line first shows up at around a value of 250 and then moves gradually to the maximum value of 255. Why is that?

My best guess (but it's not more than a guess) is that clipping is set to begin at around 250 to allow for some headroom after RAW conversion for things like sharpening. But why the move to a higher value when more pixels get clipped? Any ideas?
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digitaldog

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My best guess (but it's not more than a guess) is that clipping is set to begin at around 250 to allow for some headroom after RAW conversion for things like sharpening.
Since you are guessing and sure the guess is correct, do you really want to hear what's happening or what you're guessing?
Consider (try):
The Histogram and the clipping isn't solely Luminance based.
The Histogram and numbers isn't representing the underlying image data depending on if it is raw or not nor the underlying color space if raw or not. 
Just that indicates a guess that clipping is set to begin at around 250 is indeed a guess.  ;)
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Frans Waterlander

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Since you are guessing and sure the guess is correct, do you really want to hear what's happening or what you're guessing?
Consider (try):
The Histogram and the clipping isn't solely Luminance based.
The Histogram and numbers isn't representing the underlying image data depending on if it is raw or not nor the underlying color space if raw or not. 
Just that indicates a guess that clipping is set to begin at around 250 is indeed a guess.  ;)
I have no idea what's happening and would like to hear from someone who does. My best guess (yes, pun intended) is that what you are saying is "I have no idea either".
What I do know is that the highlight clipping line of the ACR histogram moves to the right when increasing Exposure and that move is confirmed when playing with Levels after RAW conversion.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 11:15:05 am by Frans Waterlander »
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digitaldog

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Yes, you are still guessing. No. I don't guess/assume. Both your guesses are incorrect.
I asked you to considerseveral facts and as is expected you didn’t.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 11:14:41 am by digitaldog »
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Frans Waterlander

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Yes, you are still guessing. No. I don't guess/assume. Both your guesses are incorrect.
I asked you to considerseveral facts and as is expected you didn’t.

Would really appreciate if you would be so kind as to explain to this dummy what is going on.
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digitaldog

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The truth?
Maybe someone else wants to play your games again.
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Peano

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Would really appreciate if you would be so kind as to explain to this dummy what is going on.
I don't think you'll get much help from Andrew Rodney. He specializes in flaming, not explaining.

digitaldog

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I don't think you'll get much help from Andrew Rodney. He specializes in flaming, not explaining.
So do explain it. The floor is yours.
Let the game show begin. 🤮
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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I don't think you'll get much help from Andrew Rodney. He specializes in flaming, not explaining.

 ;D ;D ;D

digitaldog

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Good to see Slobodan leaving the political forum to explain ACR for Franz. You were going to say Sloboda? 😛
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Good to see Slobodan leaving the political forum to explain ACR for Franz. You were going to say Slobodan? 😛

I was going to say that the moment I saw Frans' question, I knew there would be a snarky response from you. You seem unable to respond in a professional, let alone friendly fashion, to people you otherwise dislike politically.

Frans Waterlander

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You seem unable to respond in a professional, let alone friendly fashion, to people you otherwise dislike politically.
+1
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digitaldog

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I was going to say that the moment I saw Frans' question, I knew there would be a snarky response from you.
And you were correct sir. Because we have years of history here and on PhotoNet where Franz asks a technical question with (usually) the incorrect answer predetermined in his head, then pushes back when the technically correct answer is provided. Do you require a paper trail of such proof? I have it all archived for copy and paste.
Now what I did do is partially answer his question which thus far, no one else has attempted. You are all free to answer it in a technically correct fashion or by just guessing like Franz.
Franz is guessing indeed. But he's sure his guess is correct. And when someone here actually attempts to answer the technical question that doesn't fit the his predetermined answer, they too will get push back.

Do examine my admittedly partial answers in post #2 where thus far, the discussion is actually on topic with "Consider".
The Histogram in ACR and LR isn't providing anything about the underlying data and depending on if ACR is editing a raw or a rendered image, the differences can be profound.
The Histogram in ACR and LR isn't just showing the clipping of Luminance! Or what some could call brightness of the image being previewed.
The Histogram in ACR and LR and numbers is showing us workflow options/Melissa RGB in most cases (there are ways of alter this in LR and I'm sure you and Peano are well aware of this of course  ;D )
The assumption clipping therefore "shows up at around a value of 250 and then moves gradually to the maximum value of 255"  is a big fat guess. That answer was provided before two others came here to dismiss the technicality of the questions or answers.
So Slobodan, you've ventured into the topic, do tell us your understanding of the Histogram, RGB values and clipping in ACR and LR. The actual topic at hand. The floor is also yours.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 03:28:29 pm by digitaldog »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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... So Slobodan, you've ventured into the topic, do tell us your understanding of the Histogram, RGB values and clipping in ACR and LR. The actual topic at hand. The floor is also yours.

I never questioned your technical expertise, nor professed that mine is anywhere near. I, like the other member, am simply commenting on the manner your response is delivered.

digitaldog

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I never questioned your technical expertise, nor professed that mine is anywhere near. I, like the other member, am simply commenting on the manner your response is delivered.
Thank you for venturing here to learn of Franz's posting history and agenda so you can understand the response I delivered to him while I actually stayed on topic.
Thank you for admitting you don't know the answer to his question.
Thank you for now either leaving or lurking to learn more about ACR so this topic can go forward on the factual behavior of ACR. Or waiting on Peano to explain this to us.  ;)
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Jeremy Roussak

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Andrew, your behaviour is not acceptable. Either contribute something useful (and I know that you're capable of that) or don't post at all. Your history of rows with Frans, for which I do not seek to apportion blame, is neither here nor there.

Jeremy
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digitaldog

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Andrew, your behaviour is not acceptable. Either contribute something useful (and I know that you're capable of that) or don't post at all. Your history of rows with Frans, for which I do not seek to apportion blame, is neither here nor there.

Jeremy
I'm done and IMHO have contributed something useful about the ACR Histogram, clipping and numbers in two posts after two members went utterly off topic.
Further I'll contribute:

Everything you thought you wanted to know about Histograms:
Another exhaustive 40 minute video examining:

What are histograms. In Photoshop, ACR, Lightroom.
Histograms: clipping color and tones, color spaces and color gamut.
Histogram and Photoshop’s Level’s command.
Histograms don’t tell us our images are good (examples).
Misconceptions about histograms. How they lie.
Histograms and Expose To The Right (ETTR).
Are histograms useful and if so, how?

Low rez (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjPsP4HhHhE
High rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Histogram_Video.mov
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Jeremy Roussak

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I'm done and IMHO have contributed something useful about the ACR Histogram, clipping and numbers in two posts after two members went utterly off topic.
Further I'll contribute:

I don't mean blow your usual trumpet. I mean answer the damn question without being abusive or stay silent.

Jeremy
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Frans Waterlander

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I mean answer the damn question...

Jeremy

Right on! This is not an issue of whether or not the histogram in the Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) converter faithfully represents the underlying data, but why the highlight clipping level is shifted to the right when the Exposure slider is moved to the right (as confirmed by using Levels after conversion).
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fdisilvestro

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... the clipping line grows, as you would expect, but the line moves to the right.


I'm not sure I understand what the "Clipping line" is. Could you post a screenshot indicating what you call the Clipping line?


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