PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[JoeKitchen]

Does this mean anything? But taking it at face value, Trump fits that criteria 1000-fold.

Which is why I wrote maybe that is why Trump liked him so much, at first.   

But getting back to does this mean anything?  When he made his comment about NY, yes.  Like I said, you cant asses NY and think they did it right.  That seals the deal for me. 

[BobShaw]

So yes, Sweden fits perfectly insofar as a libertarian solution to this.  If you disagree, please tell which country gave more freedoms to this citizens.  Sweden did not even have a lock down or requires masks.

Denmark   107 dead per million, 0 dead today
Norway     48 dead per million, 4 dead today
Finland      60 dead per million, 0 dead today
Sweden     572 dead per million, 7 dead today
US             518 dead per million, 1120 dead today.

I guess Sweden realised it was wrong.
On this 75th anniversary of the end of WW2 it is interesting to reflect that your parents and grandparents were asked to go to war and get shot at and you are being asked to sit on the couch and watch Netflix. I am happy to tough it out.

[JoeKitchen]

Denmark   107 dead per million, 0 dead today
Norway     48 dead per million, 4 dead today
Finland      60 dead per million, 0 dead today
Sweden     572 dead per million, 7 dead today
US             518 dead per million, 1120 dead today.

I guess Sweden realised it was wrong.
On this 75th anniversary of the end of WW2 it is interesting to reflect that your parents and grandparents were asked to go to war and get shot at and you are being asked to sit on the couch and watch Netflix. I am happy to tough it out.

Ahh yes, but ignore Italy, France, UK ..., usual tactics.  Thanks for playing. 

But going back to my point, what is sustainable?  Non-stop lock downs?  Dont think so.   

As  I said before, you lost me.  At this point I don't care is God himself comes down to tell me to lock down, I'm not and have not been for a while.  15 days to stop the spread is now at  151 days. 

Frankly my dear, I just dont give a damn anymore, and there are many many more people that feel just like me.  Even France has publicly announced it wont lockdown again regardless of a second wave. 

As I've said in the past, we have wait a year to see where the dead stack to make any real assessment.  Perhaps Sweden did it wrong, or perhaps they are ahead of the curve. 

[Alan Klein]

Denmark   107 dead per million, 0 dead today
Norway     48 dead per million, 4 dead today
Finland      60 dead per million, 0 dead today
Sweden     572 dead per million, 7 dead today
US             518 dead per million, 1120 dead today.

I guess Sweden realised it was wrong.
On this 75th anniversary of the end of WW2 it is interesting to reflect that your parents and grandparents were asked to go to war and get shot at and you are being asked to sit on the couch and watch Netflix. I am happy to tough it out.

I can afford to sit on a couch and watch Netflix.  I get SS and a pension.  But how do you pay rent and feed your family sitting on the couch if you still need to work and aren't?  You have a photo business.  How do you tough it out if you're not making money?

[BobShaw]

Ahh yes, but ignore Italy, France, UK ..., usual tactics.  Thanks for playing. 

But going back to my point, what is sustainable?  Non-stop lock downs?  Dont think so.   

I am really not sure if you are trying to be sarcastic or just plain unaware of the facts.
I chose those Scandinavian countries because they geographically the same area as Sweden and so clearly demonstrate that the Sweden approach didn't work.
You want to talk about Italy, France, UK.
Well
UK 609 deaths per million 11 deaths today, France 466 deaths per million 18 deaths today, and Italy 583 deaths per million and 3 deaths today.

US 518 dead per million 1120 dead today. Canada by comparison 5 deaths today.
Taking action in the form of a lockdown until you have it under control does work.
The US has already passed France and will pass Italy very soon with over a 1000 deaths per day and no indication that it will ever stop because you will never get it under control.
It won't be politically correct or might offend someone.
The US is just about to pass total deaths WW1 and Vietnam combined. Serious yet?

[JoeKitchen]

I am really not sure if you are trying to be sarcastic or just plain unaware of the facts.
I chose those Scandinavian countries because they geographically the same area as Sweden and so clearly demonstrate that the Sweden approach didn't work.
You want to talk about Italy, France, UK.
Well
UK 609 deaths per million 11 deaths today, France 466 deaths per million 18 deaths today, and Italy 583 deaths per million and 3 deaths today.

US 518 dead per million 1120 dead today. Canada by comparison 5 deaths today.
Taking action in the form of a lockdown until you have it under control does work.
The US has already passed France and will pass Italy very soon with over a 1000 deaths per day and no indication that it will ever stop because you will never get it under control.
It won't be politically correct or might offend someone.
The US is just about to pass total deaths WW1 and Vietnam combined. Serious yet?

Bob, you're not going to shame me to agree with you; have you not realized that by now?  I'm a libertarian and beyond the point of being shamed or disgusted by emotional arguments. 

It could very well be that Sweden reached herd immunity and will avoid a 2nd wave that all other countries will get.  So, as I said, we wont really know for at least another year who made the right decision.  Not until all of the dead pile up, and not just from Covid. 

My beat is still on Sweden regardless.  It is not just the deaths due to C-19, but all of the suicides and overdoes and spouse abuse leading to death and death by treatable deceases, etc.  TB is making a come back with a vengeance due to the lock downs.  1.5M deaths per year is expected to rise to 3.1M deaths. 

‘The Biggest Monster’ Is Spreading. And It’s Not the Coronavirus.

Tuberculosis kills 1.5 million people each year. Lockdowns and supply-chain disruptions threaten progress against the disease as well as H.I.V. and malaria.

So yeah, save your political correctness about C-19 unless you are willing to talk about all of the deaths caused by the lock downs too.  And like I said, I just dont care anymore. 

“Death smiles at us all, but all a man can do is smile back.” - Marcus Aurelius. 

[BobShaw]

I can afford to sit on a couch and watch Netflix.  I get SS and a pension.  But how do you pay rent and feed your family sitting on the couch if you still need to work and aren't?  You have a photo business.  How do you tough it out if you're not making money?

My wife and I are retired. We don't get anything from the government but have some investments and own our home. I am doing some photography work but selling stuff on ebay keeps me busy at the moment. I have plenty of time to go through the garage. Where we are in a rural area is not much different actually.

The government is giving out money in the form of Job Keeper allowance and Job Seeker Allowance to those that other can't work because the business can't operate or have been let go.
Apparently the (conservative) government is surprisingly not too worried about giving out money as they had little debt to start with and can borrow at about 0.1%
I can't see it lasting forever and they are already starting to look at those that are receiving more money on benefits than they were actually receiving when working.

We have problem with the farmers who can't get their fruit picked because there are no backpackers and can't ship stuff because borders are closed. Foreign students and backpackers can't get any benefits but also can't travel to places that have work.

[BobShaw]

I'm a libertarian and beyond the point of being shamed or disgusted by emotional arguments. 

  And like I said, I just dont care anymore. 

I didn't present any emotional arguments. i just presented facts with numbers. Sorry.
If you don't care anymore then you should run for President.

[JoeKitchen]

I didn't present any emotional arguments. i just presented facts with numbers. Sorry.
If you don't care anymore then you should run for President.

Yep facts and numbers that conveniently ignore all of the deaths caused by the lockdowns.  Fair and balanced you are, lol. 

From the NYTs article I went back and posted in my above post. 

Tuberculosis kills 1.5 million people each year. Lockdowns and supply-chain disruptions threaten progress against the disease as well as H.I.V. and malaria.

There are these things call unintended consequences and ripple effects. 

[BobShaw]

From the NYTs article I went back and posted in my above post. 
Tuberculosis kills 1.5 million people each year. Lockdowns and supply-chain disruptions threaten progress against the disease as well as H.I.V. and malaria.

You read it in newspaper so it must be right. Your quote doesn't actually say anything about increased deaths. It says "threatens progress". Standard newspaper talk for no facts here.
HIV has been round for 40 years now. What progress? There has been a Polio vaccine for at least 50 years, but it still exists. More people get killed by a mosquito than any other animal. No change there.
But
I am quite happy to accept that there are increased deaths from other causes, which is why you need to get your covid stuff under control so that hospitals can get back to treating other issues like the rest of the world has already done. People need to be confident going to a hospital is safer than ignoring the disease.

[JoeKitchen]

You read it in newspaper so it must be right. Your quote doesn't actually say anything about increased deaths. It says "threatens progress". Standard newspaper talk for no facts here.
HIV has been round for 40 years now. What progress? There has been a Polio vaccine for at least 50 years, but it still exists. More people get killed by a mosquito than any other animal. No change there.
But
I am quite happy to accept that there are increased deaths from other causes, which is why you need to get your covid stuff under control so that hospitals can get back to treating other issues like the rest of the world has already done. People need to be confident going to a hospital is safer than ignoring the disease.

Yep, just like all of the models you, personally, insisted have to be right so many months ago.  And you have to actaully do some work, like open ths article and read to see what it says.  An article is more then just the title and sub-title. 

BTW, our Covid stuff is under control; less then 3% of hospital visits are Covid related here.  I dont think anyone really is concerned anymore then the vulnerable demographic; people are obviously back to visiting the doctor for other reasons. 

BTW, I don't know the stats in the rest of the world, but the average age of death from C-19 here is 78, as is the average age of death overall.  As I wrote before, “Death smiles at us all, but all a man can do is smile back.”  If I make it to 78, I'll be smiling.

[Alan Klein]

Yep, just like all of the models you, personally, insisted have to be right so many months ago.  And you have to actaully do some work, like open ths article and read to see what it says.  An article is more then just the title and sub-title. 

BTW, our Covid stuff is under control; less then 3% of hospital visits are Covid related here.  I dont think anyone really is concerned anymore then the vulnerable demographic; people are obviously back to visiting the doctor for other reasons. 

BTW, I don't know the stats in the rest of the world, but the average age of death from C-19 here is 78, as is the average age of death overall.  As I wrote before, “Death smiles at us all, but all a man can do is smile back.”  If I make it to 78, I'll be smiling.

Hey wait a minute.  I'm already 75. 

[JoeKitchen]

Hey wait a minute.  I'm already 75. 

Here's hoping you're above average Alan!   

[Alan Klein]

Here's hoping you're above average Alan!   

Amen to that. 

[LesPalenik]

Hey wait a minute.  I'm already 75. 

75 is the new 50. On the right diet, you can skip the pills and add 4 more healthy years to your life.

A new study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition looks at disease-free years after the age of 50 in 8000 people. The study finds that people who adhered to the dietary guidelines the most had 23.9 healthy years and were disease free until almost 74 years. Those who observed the food guidelines the least lost 2.5 healthy years, and started experiencing heart disease, stroke and diabetes at about age 71.4 years. These findings were independent of smoking, obesity and exercise, and the findings were similar across all socioeconomic groups.

Diet quality was scored according to the Alternative Healthy Eating Index, which looks at 11 dietary components, and defines a high quality diet as one that has high intakes of things like vegetables, fruit, whole grains, nuts, legumes, and a low intake of sugary drinks, trans-fats and processed meats. Similarly, a recent study in BMJ following 73,000 female nurses and 38,000 male health professionals for 34 and 28 years respectively, found that a healthier diet adds about 4 healthy years to men and women.

Four extra good years – years free of heart disease, diabetes and cancer – just for eating better.

https://herbalwater.typepad.com/ayalas_herbal_water/2020/02/a-wholesome-diet-adds-healthy-years-and-years-of-health.html

[jeremyrh]

Straw Man much?   

You started off talking about the healthcare system, and now insist on expending it to the unemployment system as well.   LOL
 

Absolutely completely wrong. I didn’t start off talking about the healthcare system at all.  I asked how a libertarian society would responded to a pandemic. I’m still waiting for an answer to that question because instead of answering it you launched into some delusional rambling about Sweden.

It’s OK - I pretty much knew you had no answer, but the level of fantasy in holding up Sweden as an example of a libertarian system exceeded even my expectations. Well done!

[JoeKitchen]

Absolutely completely wrong. I didn’t start off talking about the healthcare system at all.  I asked how a libertarian society would responded to a pandemic. I’m still waiting for an answer to that question because instead of answering it you launched into some delusional rambling about Sweden.

It’s OK - I pretty much knew you had no answer, but the level of fantasy in holding up Sweden as an example of a libertarian system exceeded even my expectations. Well done!

And I answered it, in detail.  Follow what Sweden did, which is pretty well known at this point what they did.  Have you been asleep this entire time and just not know what they did?  You would be the only person on earth if so, which I find doubtful, so why list everything.  And it is not impossible for a non-libertarian country to impliment a libertarian method.  Try thinking out side the box sometimes and realize one does not have to solely be limited to their response to everything by the dominating politics. 

But what you are doing now is trying to claim you are really asking how a libertarian society would be effected (which is a different word with a different meaning then respond in the English language) by how they respond while glossing over the nuance of different governance just to play a trick.  You proved this to be the case when you started talking about Zimbobwe and "some people," without giving any names and as if I should just take your word. 

Seriously Jeremy you are the most disingenuous and transparent person I know of.  You are so insincere when it comes to having good faith political conversations it is beyond comprehension sometimes. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Here is a TED Interview Q&A session with Bill Gates re Covid held in early July. I don't recall anything in it particularly political but I'll post this in this thread jic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmQWOPDqxWA.

[Alan Klein]

There a lot of put downs of American response to Covid.  I think that may be because of specific newscasts that show kids partying on the beach.  But when I was in NYC, the town was dead.  N one was moving around.  Streets were pretty empty.  Yet, in Europe, vacationers are traveling from country to country moving the disease from nation to nation.  GB plans to quarantine returnees to their country because its so bad on the continent.  It seems to me that most place aren't doing much better than America in their antiseptic ways.  The numbers may be high now in the US, but I think that's just a phase we're going to and will peter out soon.

The other issue is with travel related business down so much, how are Europeans going to feed their families?

Coronavirus: Thousands return to UK to beat France quarantine
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53782019

UK deals 'devastating blow' to travel industry with French quarantine
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/14/business/france-uk-quarantine/index.html

[Robert Roaldi]

There a lot of put downs of American response to Covid.  I think that may be because of specific newscasts that show kids partying on the beach.  But when I was in NYC, the town was dead.  N one was moving around.  Streets were pretty empty.  Yet, in Europe, vacationers are traveling from country to country moving the disease from nation to nation.  GB plans to quarantine returnees to their country because its so bad on the continent.  It seems to me that most place aren't doing much better than America in their antiseptic ways.  The numbers may be high now in the US, but I think that's just a phase we're going to and will peter out soon.

The other issue is with travel related business down so much, how are Europeans going to feed their families?

Coronavirus: Thousands return to UK to beat France quarantine
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53782019

UK deals 'devastating blow' to travel industry with French quarantine
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/14/business/france-uk-quarantine/index.html

Yes, people are making mistakes everywhere. You never get 100% cooperation from anyone anywhere. But you should stop being so defensive, it's as if you think the whole world is picking on you. You might be spending too much time on these forums. In the real world, lots of people, billions of them, don't care what the US does.

The level of Covid mis-management in the US is epic, beyond what anyone would have reasonably expected. The smart thing to do is to figure out why and fix it. But instead you have a governance structure that is not doing that. It keeps itself busy by infighting, trying to avoid blame by force of sound bite, and peddling embarrassing snake oil cures. FFS, you have a President who repeatedly promotes a drug that his own medical officials don't back. It's other-wordly. You are not in a good place and you are doing it to yourselves.