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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 528906 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5780 on: June 23, 2020, 03:37:32 pm »

They're human, so that's possible. It requires self-restraint to refrain from asserting subjective opinion as objective fact. So, just show me an example where they have done that and I'll examine the validity of your example. If you find a valid example of that, then we can check to see if they've offered a correction for the error.
Often, it's not specific facts, but spin.  How you present the facts that distorts the point.  I do that all the time.  So does everyone else here.  It's easy to be dismissive of opposing arguments even while including them in your presentation.  When I read Snopes, especially if the subject has political overtones, I feel like someone had their hand in my pocket; something slippery about the way the write their article.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5781 on: June 23, 2020, 03:46:51 pm »

... ust show me an example where they have done that...

Next time I come across it.

At this point, speaking for myself, but also in agreement with Alan, I can only recall years of fact-checking fact checkers and finding bias, ranging from subtle to outrageous.

Most fact checkers do a reasonable job in presenting the case (though some would omit inconvenient aspects already at this stage). But the real bias shows when they give the final verdict in one or two words (true/false, partially true/false, etc.). There are complex cases, where a single label can not possibly denote the complexity, and yet that is all that people see and remember.

kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5782 on: June 23, 2020, 03:49:12 pm »

Next time I come across it.

At this point, speaking for myself, but also in agreement with Alan, I can only recall years of fact-checking fact checkers and finding bias, ranging from subtle to outrageous.

Most fact checkers do a reasonable job in presenting the case (though some would omit inconvenient aspects already at this stage). But the real bias shows when they give the final verdict in one or two words (true/false, partially true/false, etc.). There are complex cases, where a single label can not possibly denote the complexity, and yet that is all that people see and remember.

and yet you vote for Trump... the man of Bad and Sad...
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5783 on: June 23, 2020, 03:52:19 pm »

Often, it's not specific facts, but spin.  How you present the facts that distorts the point.  I do that all the time.  So does everyone else here.  It's easy to be dismissive of opposing arguments even while including them in your presentation.  When I read Snopes, especially if the subject has political overtones, I feel like someone had their hand in my pocket; something slippery about the way the write their article.

Show me. Let's evaluate an example where their objectivity is in doubt. Given the volume of fact checking that they do, it shouldn't be difficult or too time consuming.

The objective for a fact checker is to un-spin facts from falsehoods and misleading assertions. Let's evaluate how well they do it with an example of where they failed.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5784 on: June 23, 2020, 04:00:42 pm »

Show me. Let's evaluate an example where their objectivity is in doubt. Given the volume of fact checking that they do, it shouldn't be difficult or too time consuming.

The objective for a fact checker is to un-spin facts from falsehoods and misleading assertions. Let's evaluate how well they do it with an example of where they failed.
I'll pass.  After 290 pages, I'm kind of burned out. I'll never change your mind anyway. 

TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5785 on: June 23, 2020, 04:03:27 pm »

partially true/false, etc.). There are complex cases, where a single label can not possibly denote the complexity, and yet that is all that people see and remember.

Presenting partially true / partially false narratives is the art of the propagandist. They are intentionally designed to be complex and difficult to untangle. The more complex, the better for the intended purpose which is to deceive.

It's why a fact checking organization uses mixed ratings. Given the short attention span of many readers, fact checkers do their best to be concise in untangling complex propaganda narratives. Being human, they will occasionally fall short at times; especially in the eyes of those that have an innate desire to believe the propaganda in question.
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5786 on: June 23, 2020, 04:04:18 pm »

I'll pass.  After 290 pages, I'm kind of burned out. I'll never change your mind anyway.

I understand and am not surprised.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5787 on: June 23, 2020, 04:26:25 pm »

Likewise. 

Logic, fact and common sense simply don't work here.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 08:14:22 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5788 on: June 23, 2020, 04:40:23 pm »

Presenting partially true / partially false narratives is the art of the propagandist. They are intentionally designed to be complex and difficult to untangle. The more complex, the better for the intended purpose which is to deceive.

It's why a fact checking organization uses mixed ratings. Given the short attention span of many readers, fact checkers do their best to be concise in untangling complex propaganda narratives. Being human, they will occasionally fall short at times; especially in the eyes of those that have an innate desire to believe the propaganda in question.
Sounds like justification for spin.  Your explanation is a perfect example of spin in itself.  Nice job.  :)

TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5789 on: June 23, 2020, 05:01:44 pm »

Sounds like justification for spin.  Your explanation is a perfect example of spin in itself.  Nice job.  :)

You can only see it thru your own eyes. Take from it what you will.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5790 on: June 23, 2020, 06:32:25 pm »

So now Trump is suing his niece in an effort to stop her from selling her tell all book about the Trump family saying she signed a non-disclosure agreement in 2001. How many here have signed non-disclosure agreements with their nieces? Maybe he'll have better luck with her than he did with John Bolton.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/us/politics/mary-trump-book-court.html

I wonder if she has been tested for COVID-19.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 07:06:11 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5791 on: June 23, 2020, 07:18:40 pm »

Speaking of COVID-19, Arizona set a new cases record today. Trump is in Phoenix speaking to around 3000 young people in a church auditorium. From the coverage I've seen very few are wearing masks despite being packed in there.
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5792 on: June 23, 2020, 07:24:37 pm »

Speaking of COVID-19, Arizona set a new cases record today. Trump is in Phoenix speaking to around 3000 young people in a church auditorium. From the coverage I've seen very few are wearing masks despite being packed in there.

Hopefully, the church has enough of those special air filters.

Quote
"We have exciting information about what we're doing to fight COVID-19 here at Dream City Church," Barnett says in the video. Zastro then says the church has installed a system from Clean Air EXP, a Phoenix-based company that uses technology developed by members of the church.

"We've installed these units and it kills 99.9% of COVID within 10 minutes," Zastro says.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dream-city-church-arizona-megachurch-trump-rally-air-purifier-covid-19-coronavirus/
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John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5793 on: June 23, 2020, 07:25:19 pm »

Likewise. 

Logic, fact and common sense simply doesn't work here.

Or, as Grace Slick said,

When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead
And the White Knight is talking backwards
And the Red Queen's off with her head
Remember what the Dormouse said
Feed your head, feed your head

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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5794 on: June 23, 2020, 07:42:46 pm »

Hopefully, the church has enough of those special air filters.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dream-city-church-arizona-megachurch-trump-rally-air-purifier-covid-19-coronavirus/

How can an air filter affect the droplets spraying from one person to their neighbours a couple feet away?
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5795 on: June 23, 2020, 07:51:02 pm »

How can an air filter affect the droplets spraying from one person to their neighbours a couple feet away?
By injection inside or almost a cleaning?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 07:54:25 pm by faberryman »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5796 on: June 23, 2020, 07:52:12 pm »

How can an air filter affect the droplets spraying from one person to their neighbours a couple feet away?

If you bother to research, that’s not what the church is saying.  You should try that sometime. 
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5797 on: June 23, 2020, 07:58:54 pm »

If you bother to research, that’s not what the church is saying.  You should try that sometime.

Correction:
Quote
Dream City Church Senior Pastor Luke Barnett and Chief Operations Officer Brendon Zastro make the erroneous claims in a promo video that has been circulating online this week. The video has been removed from the church's Facebook page.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dream-city-church-arizona-megachurch-trump-rally-air-purifier-covid-19-coronavirus/
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hogloff

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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5799 on: June 23, 2020, 08:08:14 pm »

In other words...doesn't do anything about community spread of Covid.

If those filters are loud enough, they could prevent spreading of the religious sermons.
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