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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 495166 times)

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5060 on: May 27, 2020, 01:14:16 pm »

I don't do social media with the exception of following a few alt process groups on Facebook, but I have seen enough tweets quoted in news articles to know that conservatives are not "totally silenced" on social media platforms.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5061 on: May 27, 2020, 01:33:16 pm »

I don't do social media with the exception of following a few alt process groups on Facebook, but I have seen enough tweets quoted in news articles to know that conservatives are not "totally silenced" on social media platforms.

Who ever said "totally silenced"? 
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5062 on: May 27, 2020, 01:49:35 pm »

Come on James, you know it goes far deeper than that. Conservative speach is regularly censored on some social media platforms. This is nothing new.  By contrast very few liberal voices are censored or subdued.  In addition to the post you commented on, there was the so called fact check banner added to another Trump tweet which is part and parcel with his other complaint.  Interestingly the person who says he responsible for such things as the fact check label ( which lead to CNN of all places) has a posting history of calling Trump and his supporter Nazis and such.

Twitter and other social media sites and pubnlically owned and have the right to run their businesses any way thay choose, including censoring of otherwise commenting on anything that appear on their platform.  I've not read it but I would not be suprised that this is called out in the terms of service.


While I don't agree that conservative speech is censored on the whole (unless you consider wacky stuff like "Pizzagate," which was basically slander with a side helping of incitement), let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you're correct.  Your decision, then, is one of principle - are you in favor of enforcing "fairness" in media, or are you dedicated to expression, even when it's expression you disagree with?  And if the latter, what priority do you put on that freedom, and how do you reconcile that when the most powerful person in the world, literally the very individual with the responsibility to safeguard that freedom - is stating his intent to curtail it when their expression disagrees with his?

I mean, if President Hillary Clinton got on TV and said, If Fox news doesn't allow me to go on their network and claim that Sean Hannity is a murderer, I'm going to use the FCC to shut them down," you'd lose your mind, and rightfully so. (And she'd immediately lose my vote, also rightfully so.)

« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 02:37:12 pm by James Clark »
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5063 on: May 27, 2020, 01:52:03 pm »

James,

This is the part where I fully agree with Trump.

While I do not agree with this:

I am very much annoyed by the censorship of mostly conservative views by the social media. Or attaching a rebuttal directly to someone's post. Or their "fact checking," which is clearly heavily biased. I do not know what to do about it, other than not using those media.

I wish I had a solution.  The "Fairness Doctrine" was a fair attempt, but I'm not sure how one would implement that with the current structure of the media, or with government oversight bodies that have become overtly political.

As an aside, are you honestly annoyed when Donald Trump infers that Joe Scarborough is guilty of murder and Twitter points out that this is unsubstantiated?  :)   If not, do you believe in libel/slander as a concept?
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5064 on: May 27, 2020, 01:53:26 pm »

Who ever said "totally silenced"?
Trump as quoted in Slobodan’s post.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5065 on: May 27, 2020, 01:55:36 pm »

From the experts department:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/30/birdflu.jamessturcke?fbclid=IwAR060YmfLCQIoP6cUb7wmPd-KuiuFR7CaUZtAYZT_HmNfg00VEbmuuvmSOo

Bird flu pandemic 'could kill 150m'

Quote
A global influenza pandemic is imminent and will kill up to 150 million people, the UN official in charge of coordinating the worldwide response to an outbreak has warned.
David Nabarro, one of the most senior public health experts at the World Health Organisation, said outbreaks of bird flu, which have killed at least 65 people in Asia, could mutate into a form transmittable between people.

"The consequences in terms of human life when the pandemic does start are going to be extraordinary and very damaging," he said.

He told the BBC that the "range of deaths could be anything between five and 150 million".

Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5066 on: May 27, 2020, 04:12:59 pm »

Trump as quoted in Slobodan’s post.

Got it, thanks.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5067 on: May 27, 2020, 04:27:04 pm »

While I don't agree that conservative speech is censored on the whole (unless you consider wacky stuff like "Pizzagate," which was basically slander with a side helping of incitement), let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you're correct.  Your decision, then, is one of principle - are you in favor of enforcing "fairness" in media, or are you dedicated to expression, even when it's expression you disagree with?  And if the latter, what priority do you put on that freedom, and how do you reconcile that when the most powerful person in the world, literally the very individual with the responsibility to safeguard that freedom - is stating his intent to curtail it when their expression disagrees with his?

I mean, if President Hillary Clinton got on TV and said, If Fox news doesn't allow me to go on their network and claim that Sean Hannity is a murderer, I'm going to use the FCC to shut them down," you'd lose your mind, and rightfully so. (And she'd immediately lose my vote, also rightfully so.)

You need to read more or broaden your sources. :)

I'm for free speach and I'm for private ownership rights, which I thought I expresssed in my earlier post.  Say what you want, within the limits of the law. 

When it comes to Joe and Mika, they are just reaping what th ey sow,and since they like to almost daily trash Trump, they should not be suprised they get blowback.  And since all of them are public figures there is a pretty good chance no legal action from either party has a hoots chance in hell of going anywhere.  But I will say this about Joe and the intern, the medical examiner was a really hinkly dude with a pretty spotty record.  Was he wrong?  No idea? 

As for Trump wanted to "reform or shut down" social media?  Dog whistle.  He can't anymore than he could have shut the country down or forced the states to open churches.  He needs legislation and he will never get it.  He can however make his point, and he did.  My biggest complaint about Trump are his Twitter habits, but he knows how to use the platform to bend the news cycle to his liking.  Oh, and he usuaslly talks past the sale.

My dance card is really packed right. I'm booked almost every day for the next 45 with photography and post.  As much as I would like to continue this conversation with you I'm just not in a position to put much effort into it.  BTW, I hope the opening up of the country starts bringing your business back online soon too.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 05:09:11 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5068 on: May 27, 2020, 05:03:23 pm »

... As an aside, are you honestly annoyed when Donald Trump infers that Joe Scarborough is guilty of murder and Twitter points out that this is unsubstantiated?  :)   If not, do you believe in libel/slander as a concept?

I am annoyed for both reasons: that Trump peddles that rumor (unless he really knows what the rest of us do not), and that Twitter points it out as unsubstantiated. Words of the President of the United States should be communicated without immediate rebuttal in the same post. Heck, MY words shouldn't get amended that way on Twitter. Social media has plenty of spaces to publish their opinion on any subject, be it POTUS or me. It is a long-standing judicial principle: you can't cherry pick. Unless Twitter posts their verdict on EACH and EVERY post, they can't just debunk certain ones, especially when they go after conservatives disproportionately.

As for libel/slander, I do believe in it as a concept. But there is a due process for that in court. It can not be Twitter's job.

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5069 on: May 27, 2020, 05:59:35 pm »

Cross-posted with the "No Politics" thread, because its relevant both places.

Johns Hopkins, the semi-official counter of "confirmed" covid-19 deaths in the US, now lists more than 100,000 deaths.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5070 on: May 27, 2020, 06:11:20 pm »

I am annoyed for both reasons: that Trump peddles that rumor (unless he really knows what the rest of us do not), and that Twitter points it out as unsubstantiated...
It's a waste of time and effort. Trump's supporters are unlikely to click on the link, read, or believe the material linked to. It will just be more Fake News to them. It is also one more thing they can cry victim over. Not well thought through.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:47:47 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5071 on: May 27, 2020, 06:58:27 pm »

From the experts department:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/30/birdflu.jamessturcke?fbclid=IwAR060YmfLCQIoP6cUb7wmPd-KuiuFR7CaUZtAYZT_HmNfg00VEbmuuvmSOo

Bird flu pandemic 'could kill 150m'

"He told the BBC that the "range of deaths could be anything between five and 150 million"."

With a specified range of between five and 150 million, he can hardly miss. Chances of this actually happening: between zero and 100 percent.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5072 on: May 27, 2020, 07:33:34 pm »

Unless Twitter posts their verdict on EACH and EVERY post, they can't just debunk certain ones, especially when they go after conservatives disproportionately.

Some posts are undeniably correct and need no debunking.  "Spacex launch scrubbed", for example.  Others need validation.  "My inauguration crowds were bigger than anyone elses, ever in the history of the world", for instance.  As long as it's made clear that these are opinions, not assertions of fact.

IMHO, it's about time social media took part in mediating the information/disinformation that is published under their name.  Newspapers can be held accountable, why not these new platforms.  Note that I'm referring to imputed "facts", not opinions, which I'm sure we all believe should be immune from such attention.
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Chris Kern

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5073 on: May 27, 2020, 08:46:19 pm »

Social media has plenty of spaces to publish their opinion on any subject, be it POTUS or me. It is a long-standing judicial principle: you can't cherry pick. Unless Twitter posts their verdict on EACH and EVERY post, they can't just debunk certain ones, especially when they go after conservatives disproportionately.

I'm not certain what you mean by a "longstanding judicial principle."  Are you conflating the constitutional provision protecting freedom of speech, which prevents the federal and state governments from restricting free expression, and the authority of private publishers to control the content of their media?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 09:03:00 pm by Chris Kern »
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John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5074 on: May 27, 2020, 11:54:21 pm »

I'm not certain what you mean by a "longstanding judicial principle."  Are you conflating the constitutional provision protecting freedom of speech, which prevents the federal and state governments from restricting free expression, and the authority of private publishers to control the content of their media?

I think private *social media* publishers have a problem either way. The could probably assert the right to control expression on their private system (as newspapers and television networks do) but if they did that, then they'd open themselves to numerous claims that they didn't, in some cases, do the right thing. If X libels Z, and the libel doesn't fall into certain protected categories, the publisher is liable for damages (as they are with newspapers and regulated TV networks.) In other words, if they took some responsibility, they'd take all responsibility -- and that would be tough on a social media network that may have millions of comments in a single day.

However, social media benefit from a "carve-out" which treats them not as ordinary media, but basically as a kind of telephone system which simply transmits what is said, and is not responsible for monitoring it. Therefore, if X libels Z, Z can sue X, who might not have a dime to his name, but can't sue the deep-pockets publisher. The reason for this is that the social media argue that with tens of millions of messages sent every day, they literally *can't* monitor it all. But when outrageous things are said, the question arises, how can this kind of obviously libelous, dishonest commentary be allowed, considering the damage it is doing?

Frankly, there have been some comments made on this Coffee Corner series of threads that have veered closed to libel; ordinarily, X could sue Z, but couldn't sue LULA. I don't know what effect the presence of a moderator would make. Does his presence mean that LULA has assumed responsibility for what is said on these forums?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5075 on: May 28, 2020, 01:35:32 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1toAVH8A01U

For those who understand French, a very interesting interview from Dr. Raoult, the French specialist who has had good results with Chloriquine.

He brings to the table interesting doubts about the credibility of the recent article by the Lancet. He wonders whether their article isn't motivated by anti-Trump politics. I would agree that there is serious doubt on this.

Not that this doesn't change my view that Trump didn't act presidentially when he promoted the usage of a drug about which there is still widespread discussion.

Cheers,
Bernard

kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5076 on: May 28, 2020, 05:10:56 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1toAVH8A01U

For those who understand French, a very interesting interview from Dr. Raoult, the French specialist who has had good results with Chloriquine.

He brings to the table interesting doubts about the credibility of the recent article by the Lancet. He wonders whether their article isn't motivated by anti-Trump politics. I would agree that there is serious doubt on this.

Not that this doesn't change my view that Trump didn't act presidentially when he promoted the usage of a drug about which there is still widespread discussion.

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't think the Lancet would like to be titled 'political motivated' .
They try to promote science... being political orientated would be the end of the Lancet.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5077 on: May 28, 2020, 05:18:15 am »

With a specified range of between five and 150 million, he can hardly miss. Chances of this actually happening: between zero and 100 percent.

You are 100% correct!

Btw, it was nowhere near 5 million either.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5078 on: May 28, 2020, 06:38:39 am »

I don't think the Lancet would like to be titled 'political motivated' .
They try to promote science... being political orientated would be the end of the Lancet.

While there will always be different opinions in science (scientists rarely agree on everything), Dr. Didier Raoult's (non-double blind) study has been criticized by many. What I've read about it in April, didn't inspire confidence. He apparently also doesn't agree with Darwin's Evolution theories, but that doesn't necessarily say much about his virology work.

The Lancet article on the other hand, was extensively peer-reviewed before publishing, as befits the status of articles that are accepted for publication in The Lancet...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5079 on: May 28, 2020, 09:43:50 am »

While there will always be different opinions in science (scientists rarely agree on everything), Dr. Didier Raoult's (non-double blind) study has been criticized by many. What I've read about it in April, didn't inspire confidence. He apparently also doesn't agree with Darwin's Evolution theories, but that doesn't necessarily say much about his virology work.

The Lancet article on the other hand, was extensively peer-reviewed before publishing, as befits the status of articles that are accepted for publication in The Lancet...

He points out some oddities in the lancet article, including the lack of clear data source and very strange similarities of population typologies across continents that I have to agree are suspicious.

He doesn’t claim that his results are following the double blind approach. He is just saying that he had very good results with the specific usage of chloriquine he did in his controlled environment.

Regarding Darwin, I don’t know his position in details, but I don’t think he is questioning the theory of evolution. He just stressing that it’s never sain to make a theory into something perfect and holy that’s completely above questioning. He stresses that some early blind applications of Darwin’s theory were later refuted, which is true. I understand that in a context where questioning evolution often means that god created man, his position can be misunderstood but I think it’s much more subtle than him disagreeing with the theory of evolution.

Anyway, there is sufficient doubt about Chloriquine without the Lancet article that Trump should of course never have promoted the drug the way he did.

Cheers,
Bernard
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