PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Robert Roaldi]

Does this seem familiar to anyone? https://dilbert.com/strip/2020-05-24. 

[Craig Lamson]

Directly.

Handling of the pandemic is predominantly state governors’ responsibility, not the President’s, by design, in spite of what you think.

Democrat governors and mayors opted for what comes natural to them - fascist measures. Lockdowns, police state, sadism, snitching, surveillance, causing much more deaths and immense economic devastation than in the states governed by Republican governors.

It goes even deeper than that. City Mayors have a say in the contol scheme.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

...

?

Since when are e.g. car accidents contagious?

[Peter McLennan]

Does this seem familiar to anyone? https://dilbert.com/strip/2020-05-24. 

It does indeed.

Lifted right from these pages.

[Craig Lamson]

Unless both the patient and the Dr are wrong in their assumption, dead wrong in this case.

Hydroxychloroquine linked to increase in COVID-19 deaths, heart risks
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/05/hydroxychloroquine-linked-to-increase-in-covid-19-deaths-heart-risks/
[...]

Yes we have been discussing that study. so what does it tell us?  Old people with heart truble and lots of other problems who have the virus most likely should not have taken the drug becusee it can cause heart problems, which has been well known for years.

So tell me how is a Dr and a patient deciding that this might be an option to save a life, any different than a Dr and patient deciding to go ahead and do a risky heart surgery and then having the patient die on the table?  Maybe the surgery is not acceptable risk for some just like hydroxychloroquine may not be.  And maybe it is for some.

[Craig Lamson]

It does indeed.

Lifted right from these pages.

You do understand, don't you that Scott  Adams is a Trump fan and perhaps his strip is targeting the person you see in the mirror in the morning...and those like you here.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Yes we have been discussing that study. so what does it tell us?  Old people with heart truble and lots of other problems who have the virus most likely should not have taken the drug becusee it can cause heart problems, which has been well known for years.

So tell me how is a Dr and a patient deciding that this might be an option to save a life, ...

Beats me, why one would prescribe a medication that has more risks than benefits, especially as a preventattive option.


[... any different than a Dr and patient deciding to go ahead and do a risky heart surgery and then having the patient die on the table?[/quote]

When heart surgery is proposed as a treatment, it is known to have a good effects for the patient, with at least better than worse results.

[Craig Lamson]

Beats me, why one would prescribe a medication that has more risks than benefits, especially as a preventattive option.


[... any different than a Dr and patient deciding to go ahead and do a risky heart surgery and then having the patient die on the table?

When heart surgery is proposed as a treatment, it is known to have a good effects for the patient, with at least better than worse results.

Why? Simply because there are no other real options at this point.  Are you also in the you can't do that, so just take your chances group?  And you know it has more risks than benefits as a preventitive how?

Heart surgery is HOPED to have good results, but its also a risky venture undertaken with full understanding it might result in death by both Patient and DR. I know this personally.

[faberryman]

Why? Simply because there are no other real options at this point.

There are lots of low risk options he could try. I mentioned before that I have been taking a multi-vitamin supplement and haven't contracted the virus. He could try that. He could also try shifting from regular fries to sweet potato fries with his daily burger. No reported adverse reactions there, although I admit they are an acquired taste. Another low risk option to try is wearing your socks inside out. Like hydroxychloroquine, none of these alternatives have been proven effective, but we haven't had clinical trials yet. I'm sure you could come up with some other alternatives as well. What do you have to lose?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Why? Simply because there are no other real options at this point.  Are you also in the you can't do that, so just take your chances group?

I'm not in a group, unless you can't help yourself to label those who have educated themselves by reading about the medication that the known(!) risks of hydroxychloroquine far outweigh the anecdotal and disputed benefits of it. The latest observational reports, of which I just quoted one, indicate the bad odds (all negative, none positive) of taking hydroxychloroquine:

Comparing the treatment groups to controls and adjusting each patient’s risk factors, such as congestive heart failure, the researchers found the following:

    COVID-19 patients given hydroxychloroquine alone had a 34-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 137-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.
    Those given hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide had a 45-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 411-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.
    Those given chloroquine had a 37-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 256-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.
    Those given chloroquine and a macrolide had a 37-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 301-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

There are lots of low risk options he could try. I mentioned before that I have been taking a multi-vitamin supplement and haven't contracted the virus. He could try that. He could also try shifting from potato chips to Cheetos. No reported adverse reactions there, although I admit they are an acquired taste. Another low risk option to try is wearing your socks inside out. Like hydroxychloroquine, none of these alternatives have been proven effective, but we haven't had clinical trials yet. What do you have to lose?

Correct, but more was already known about Hydroxychloroquine usage in human COVID-19 patients:
Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v2

Patients were categorized based on their exposure to hydroxychloroquine alone (HC) or with azithromycin (HC+AZ) as treatments in addition to standard supportive management for Covid-19. The two primary outcomes were death and the need for mechanical ventilation. We determined the association between treatment and the primary outcomes using competing risk hazard regression adjusting for clinical characteristics via propensity scores.

[...]

CONCLUSIONS: In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19. An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone

[John Camp]

Trump on medical care:

https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1253474772702429189?lang=en

[Craig Lamson]

There are lots of low risk options he could try. I mentioned before that I have been taking a multi-vitamin supplement and haven't contracted the virus. He could try that. He could also try shifting from regular fries to sweet potato fries with his daily burger. No reported adverse reactions there, although I admit they are an acquired taste. Another low risk option to try is wearing your socks inside out. Like hydroxychloroquine, none of these alternatives have been proven effective, but we haven't had clinical trials yet. I'm sure you could come up with some other alternatives as well. What do you have to lose?

Well you get to make your choices.  I'll not fault you for any of them just like I'll not fault Trump ( or anyone else for that matter ) for making theirs.  And thats the entire point. 

[Craig Lamson]

Correct, but more was already known about Hydroxychloroquine usage in human COVID-19 patients:
Outcomes of hydroxychloroquine usage in United States veterans hospitalized with Covid-19
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v2
[...]

A rebuttal...
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Response-to-Magagnoli.pdf

As reported eariler on this study most of the patients were in late stage covid and this treatmetn was a last ditch effort.

[Craig Lamson]

Trump on medical care:

https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1253474772702429189?lang=en

Biden on the cure...
https://twitter.com/brandondarby/status/1242480561895194624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1242495984040652800&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fdeadline.com%2F2020%2F03%2Fjoe-biden-gaffe-alert-stuns-the-view-by-claiming-coronavirus-cure-will-make-the-problem-worse-1202891856%2F

[BernardLanguillier]

Well you get to make your choices.  I'll not fault you for any of them just like I'll not fault Trump ( or anyone else for that matter ) for making theirs.  And thats the entire point.

The point you are refusing to admit is that Trump, as the President of the US, has various responsibilities and one of them, most people would agree, is to act responsibly by not showing an example of irrational behaviour, such as using a drug whose effectiveness is not proven. This again akin to “why not disinfecting us from inside?”.

Nobody looking at the situation objectively sees in his behavior bravery or entrepreneurship... we only see irresponsibility, intuition based decision making and a level of action that is a total shame for the presidential function. Not just of the US btw. Any official from any country would be crucified by the free press and the opinion for doing what Trump is doing.

Even the most hardcore supporter of Chloriquine advises against taking it when not hospitalized and before showing any symptoms.

So once again Craig, you are showing us day in day out your preference for defending any Trump decision/behavior/... in a totally unconditional manner. And I ask you again the question you refused to answer several pages ago, why should we not look at you as a fanatic that will always support Trump whatever? What would it take for you to stop supporting him?

With a hint thrown in... if the condition is his political opponent not be a democrat, then this condition will never be met.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Craig Lamson]

I must admit, triggering eggheads and watching them explode repeatedly is really entertaining.  Orange Man Bad Virus is all consuming.

Its too bad really because the OMB virus instills so much hate into those afflicted. 

[BernardLanguillier]

I must admit, triggering eggheads and watching them explode repeatedly is really entertaining.  Orange Man Bad Virus is all consuming.

Its too bad really because the OMB virus instills so much hate into those afflicted.

Calling sick those who point out your inconsistencies...

Where does hatred reside Craig?

It can’t be too far from your heart.

Regards,
Bernard

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... What would it take for you to stop supporting him?...

Easy.

Four more years and we will stop supporting him in Jan 2025.