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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 500394 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4080 on: May 09, 2020, 06:30:47 pm »

Joes next door neighbor?  :) :)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4081 on: May 09, 2020, 07:22:52 pm »

Slobodan.....have you been watching Bill Maher again??   https://youtu.be/Ju1ZFuvjzYc

Just now, after you posted the link. The thing about him is that he is the only guy on the left who shares something with conservatives (and me): being fiercely anti-PC.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4082 on: May 09, 2020, 08:33:54 pm »

Maybe...

On Fauci, the claim is not the virus was “made” in a Chinese lab.  That’s a straw man.

Really? The question asked to Trump (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52496098) was:
"Have you seen anything at this point that gives you a high degree of confidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the origin of this virus".

Now, while I'm not a native speaker of the English language (or the American version of it), because I'm a Dutch native speaker, I was of the impression that "origin" meant to be the "source", or "the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived" at least that's what Merriam-Webster wants us to believe ...

To which Trump answered: "Yes I have. And I think that the World Health Organization (which BTW is a deflection) should be ashamed of themselves because they're like the public relations department of China, and this country pays them $500 million dollars a year, and China pays them $38 milion dollars a year (which BTW is another deflection). Whether that's a lot or more, it doesn't matter" (which is a cop-out).

I'm liberal enough, although that might trigger some preconceived issues in your brain, to grant that your President doesn't know the meaning of "origin". Shit happens, when 'you' (as a nation) elect someone like that.

BTW, that further illustrates Trump's ignorance, because e.g. the WHO also gives guidance on (worldwide) outbreaks of measles, Ebola, etc..
Cutting funding to those efforts is ludicrous (to put it mildly), and only demonstrates his (and those who associate with his) ignorance.

Oh, well.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 10:33:18 pm by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4083 on: May 09, 2020, 11:23:00 pm »

Really? The question asked to Trump (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52496098) was:
"Have you seen anything at this point that gives you a high degree of confidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the origin of this virus".

Now, while I'm not a native speaker of the English language (or the American version of it), because I'm a Dutch native speaker, I was of the impression that "origin" meant to be the "source", or "the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived" at least that's what Merriam-Webster wants us to believe ...

To which Trump answered: "Yes I have. And I think that the World Health Organization (which BTW is a deflection) should be ashamed of themselves because they're like the public relations department of China, and this country pays them $500 million dollars a year, and China pays them $38 milion dollars a year (which BTW is another deflection). Whether that's a lot or more, it doesn't matter" (which is a cop-out).

I'm liberal enough, although that might trigger some preconceived issues in your brain, to grant that your President doesn't know the meaning of "origin". Shit happens, when 'you' (as a nation) elect someone like that.

BTW, that further illustrates Trump's ignorance, because e.g. the WHO also gives guidance on (worldwide) outbreaks of measles, Ebola, etc..
Cutting funding to those efforts is ludicrous (to put it mildly), and only demonstrates his (and those who associate with his) ignorance.

Oh, well.


China lied to the world about the nature of the virus delaying a "heads up" and causing preparation delays in the rest of the world.  They also allowed infected Chinese from Wuhan to travel to the rest of the world while shutting down Wuhan travelers to other parts of China.  It doesn't matter whether it started in a lab or their wet market or a bat.  China's dirty fingerprints are all over this. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4084 on: May 09, 2020, 11:46:26 pm »

Who wants to sign up?

Carnival swamped with cruise bookings after announcing August return
https://nypost.com/2020/05/09/carnival-swamped-with-bookings-after-announcing-august-return/

kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4085 on: May 10, 2020, 05:40:39 am »

China lied to the world about the nature of the virus delaying a "heads up" and causing preparation delays in the rest of the world.  They also allowed infected Chinese from Wuhan to travel to the rest of the world while shutting down Wuhan travelers to other parts of China.  It doesn't matter whether it started in a lab or their wet market or a bat.  China's dirty fingerprints are all over this.

China reacted more quickly and better than the US. They seem to have locked the virus down effectively in the Wuhan region.
That in the beginning infected people ( also foreigners) could travel out of China is not their blame.
(We see in France that some early cases date back to december 2019.)
China was surprised by the virus as being the first country hit:
The US as being one of the last western countries hit could see it coming months away knowing all about it.
The same counts for the UK.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 05:52:00 am by kers »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4086 on: May 10, 2020, 06:29:26 am »

China reacted more quickly and better than the US. They seem to have locked the virus down effectively in the Wuhan region.
That in the beginning infected people ( also foreigners) could travel out of China is not their blame.
(We see in France that some early cases date back to december 2019.)
China was surprised by the virus as being the first country hit:
The US as being one of the last western countries hit could see it coming months away knowing all about it.
The same counts for the UK.

This is according to their state run media.  Has China allowed independent foreign journalist into Wuhan yet? 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4087 on: May 10, 2020, 07:21:56 am »

Damn! 

California Democrat reacts to Tesla lawsuit, pullout plan over coronavirus rules: ‘F--- Elon Musk’

Looks like Elon Musk is now the left's new demagogue. 

Not going to lie, the misses and me too have been talking about what to do if the economy does not open up fast enough to recover and whether we should cut our loses by moving to TX.  Houses are pretty reasonable.  Got to love Dan Crenshaw. 

Now the question is, will Musk follow through or was this just some pot induced tweeting?  He did sell his properties in CA, so maybe he is serious.  I'll believe it when I see it though. 

« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 07:25:54 am by JoeKitchen »
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degrub

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4088 on: May 10, 2020, 09:57:18 am »

Saw this interesting, level headed opinion piece in the Bangkok Post this morning.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1913836/its-time-to-face-grim-covid-19-reality

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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4089 on: May 10, 2020, 11:22:49 am »

Saw this interesting, level headed opinion piece in the Bangkok Post this morning.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1913836/its-time-to-face-grim-covid-19-reality

Well, there's something I never even considered until now, that we would be limited on how fast we can vaccinate the world based on our production capacity. 

21.4 years to produce enough doses for the world if we suddenly had a vaccine today and went full tilt tomorrow on manufacturing. 
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4090 on: May 10, 2020, 12:25:15 pm »

Damn! 

California Democrat reacts to Tesla lawsuit, pullout plan over coronavirus rules: ‘F--- Elon Musk’

Looks like Elon Musk is now the left's new demagogue. 

Not going to lie, the misses and me too have been talking about what to do if the economy does not open up fast enough to recover and whether we should cut our loses by moving to TX.  Houses are pretty reasonable.  Got to love Dan Crenshaw. 

Now the question is, will Musk follow through or was this just some pot induced tweeting?  He did sell his properties in CA, so maybe he is serious.  I'll believe it when I see it though.

Is Musk going to move his HQ every time the state it is in does something he doesn't like? I don't know how many employees he has but are they all going to move en masse every time he gets that wandering feeling? Maybe he'd be better off buying an island somewhere and declaring it a country. Maybe he and Zuck can split one.

Public policy decisions by some rich guy!  Now there's a governance model. Didn't we already try that with Kings and Princes and such and found it wanting.

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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4091 on: May 10, 2020, 12:36:54 pm »

Is Musk going to move his HQ every time the state it is in does something he doesn't like? I don't know how many employees he has but are they all going to move en masse every time he gets that wandering feeling? Maybe he'd be better off buying an island somewhere and declaring it a country. Maybe he and Zuck can split one.

Public policy decisions by some rich guy!  Now there's a governance model. Didn't we already try that with Kings and Princes and such and found it wanting.

CA has a horrible tax code.  It’s not just him, but several businesses and people.  He’s just the latest well known one.  Perhaps it would be better for the state to figure out ways of attracting businesses not push them away?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4092 on: May 10, 2020, 12:52:45 pm »

CA has a horrible tax code.  It’s not just him, but several businesses and people.  He’s just the latest well known one.  Perhaps it would be better for the state to figure out ways of attracting businesses not push them away?

I have never thought of California as being inhospitable to business.

Maybe tax jurisdictions like states should stop "competing" against each other trying to attract businesses by cutting each other's and their own throats. Don't you risk ending up with public policy decided by corporate demands instead of by citizens? Or don't votes count as much as dollars? 

I have seen numerous companies catered to by public largesse here in Canada, but I'm not sure it ever paid off. You hand them a bunch of cash to "create" jobs, and they lay people off anyway, while paying themselves healthy bonuses. Why does a government have to use taxpayer money to convince a company to "create" jobs? Shouldn't companies be doing that anyway.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4093 on: May 10, 2020, 01:19:53 pm »

China reacted more quickly and better than the US. They seem to have locked the virus down effectively in the Wuhan region.
That in the beginning infected people ( also foreigners) could travel out of China is not their blame.
(We see in France that some early cases date back to december 2019.)
China was surprised by the virus as being the first country hit:
The US as being one of the last western countries hit could see it coming months away knowing all about it.
The same counts for the UK.

They are to blame.  Trump didn't shut down travel from China until Jan 31st.  Had the world known of the seriousness sooner, the whole world could have shut down China's travelers avoiding more deaths in many countries.  It's very odd that you blame Western leaders for not shutting down earlier.  But you you don't blame China's leaders for not announcing earlier the seriousness of the issue.  Why are you an apologist for the Chinese?

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4094 on: May 10, 2020, 01:21:47 pm »

I have never thought of California as being inhospitable to business.

Maybe tax jurisdictions like states should stop "competing" against each other trying to attract businesses by cutting each other's and their own throats. Don't you risk ending up with public policy decided by corporate demands instead of by citizens? Or don't votes count as much as dollars? 

I have seen numerous companies catered to by public largesse here in Canada, but I'm not sure it ever paid off. You hand them a bunch of cash to "create" jobs, and they lay people off anyway, while paying themselves healthy bonuses. Why does a government have to use taxpayer money to convince a company to "create" jobs? Shouldn't companies be doing that anyway.

CA has been getting worse with their taxes over the years.  They have been essentially passing "temporary" tax policies through votes on presidential election years directed at businesses and high yearners using clever names, like as if they are for the benefit of schooling.  Who is against making schooling better, right?  Since most of the public is out to vote on these years and most are okay voting against rich people, they pass.   Shortly thereafter, they pass an injunction to make the tax permanent though, very sneaky with even better names. 

This has been going on for the last ten years and it is having it's effects.  For instance, CA takes longer then any other state to recover from a recession now. 

But anyway, it is not stopping either.  There is a tax up for a vote this year where businesses who make over $1M in revenue will see an increase in their property taxes.  To the average person, $1M in revenue sounds big, so most this will think this only effects large corporations.  However, a well run restaurant will clear that in a year (well, maybe not anymore).  It will more then likely pass, causing even more people to leave the State. 

Lee Ohanian, an economist in CA, has been doing podcasts with the Hoover Institute over this exact fact in the past few weeks. 

Insofar as you comment about states not competing, well this is more complicated.  Each state has it's own personality and priorities, and some states are such that you need more money to operate them.  This then increases taxes to cover those expenses.  Of course, it is always easy to tax the rich, however doing so distorts habits that then lead to change, like moving to a different state. 

On top of that, both CA and NY made public pension promises much higher then they could afford merely to get votes to win re-elections.  And even if these politicians making these promises knew they would never be able to pay out, by the time the pensions went into effect, they would have been long retired.  The bill though is coming due, which is why Cuomo and Newsom are looking for state debt forgiveness in any up coming additional C-19 packages.  I am emphatically against it, since it will allow politicians to yet again kick the can down the road instead of solving the problem. 

Note: if NY wanted only debt foregiveness for debts incurred by the C-19 response only, I'd be okay with that. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4095 on: May 10, 2020, 01:37:17 pm »

I have never thought of California as being inhospitable to business.

Maybe tax jurisdictions like states should stop "competing" against each other trying to attract businesses by cutting each other's and their own throats. Don't you risk ending up with public policy decided by corporate demands instead of by citizens? Or don't votes count as much as dollars? 

I have seen numerous companies catered to by public largesse here in Canada, but I'm not sure it ever paid off. You hand them a bunch of cash to "create" jobs, and they lay people off anyway, while paying themselves healthy bonuses. Why does a government have to use taxpayer money to convince a company to "create" jobs? Shouldn't companies be doing that anyway.
You're right and wrong about state incentives paid to get companies to move.  But that's another issue. 

The main point is that each state taxes differently.  For example, in NJ where I live, there's an personal income tax or roughly 6.7% and 10.5% for corporate.  It's zero in Florida for personal and 4.5% for corporate.  So a small manufacturer can not only save on his business taxes, but also on the salary he pays himself and other earnings.  That's a huge incentive to leave NJ for Florida.  So leaving aside state governments payouts to attract businesses, even if they don;t do that, there's an incentive for companies to go to states that have lower corporate and personal income taxes.  Of course, if you're a small service business like a restaurant, you're not going to move.  You can't take your customers with you. But if you're a manufacturer that can build anywhere, you move to a state where costs are less. 

Of course, with all the printing and new debt, and an economy that is faltering, there will be less taxes collected by federal, state, and municipalities. So to make up the difference,  taxes will probably go up all over.  That will make the economy worse because higher taxes reduce business as there's less money available for consumption and investment.  So we're shooting ourselves in the foot with all this "stimulus" spending.  It's making it worse, not better. We're stimulating ourselves into a depression, certainly stagflation. 

chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4096 on: May 10, 2020, 01:45:43 pm »

They are to blame.  Trump didn't shut down travel from China until Jan 31st.  Had the world known of the seriousness sooner, the whole world could have shut down China's travelers avoiding more deaths in many countries.  It's very odd that you blame Western leaders for not shutting down earlier.  But you you don't blame China's leaders for not announcing earlier the seriousness of the issue.  Why are you an apologist for the Chinese?

Shutting down is good...it's his lack of action after the shutdown and his stupid remarks about the virus "magically go away" is where he failed big time. No leadership and this can be seen as states are all over the place...fighting and bidding against themselves for PPE. Trump made a mess out of this crisis...and blames everyone else, even Obama.
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BobShaw

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4097 on: May 10, 2020, 06:49:15 pm »

They are to blame.  Trump didn't shut down travel from China until Jan 31st.  Had the world known of the seriousness sooner, the whole world could have shut down China's travelers avoiding more deaths in many countries.  It's very odd that you blame Western leaders for not shutting down earlier.  But you you don't blame China's leaders for not announcing earlier the seriousness of the issue.  Why are you an apologist for the Chinese?

Well Jan 31 is before a lot of countries probably did shut down travellers from China. Australia was about the same and Australian residents from China are never stopped. So how did Trump stuff it up so badly since then? Answer - The world did know it was serious and publicly said so. Trump said it wasn't serious.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4098 on: May 10, 2020, 07:21:30 pm »

Well Jan 31 is before a lot of countries probably did shut down travellers from China. Australia was about the same and Australian residents from China are never stopped. So how did Trump stuff it up so badly since then? Answer - The world did know it was serious and publicly said so. Trump said it wasn't serious.

This is just not true. 

I was in Australia at the end of Feb and beginning of March, and your government did not take this anymore seriously then us.  Everyone there at the time treated it as a novelty, nothing more. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 07:47:47 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4099 on: May 10, 2020, 07:41:19 pm »

Shutting down is good...it's his lack of action after the shutdown and his stupid remarks about the virus "magically go away" is where he failed big time. No leadership and this can be seen as states are all over the place...fighting and bidding against themselves for PPE. Trump made a mess out of this crisis...and blames everyone else, even Obama.
Certainly we have different opinions about the effectiveness of western leaders including Trump and the state's governors. But that doesn't give China a free pass for hiding information and lying about its seriousness that made the pandemic worse. 
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