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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 521229 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2980 on: April 27, 2020, 10:55:50 pm »

Trump was decisive.  He shut down travel from China.  Biden and Democrats called him a xenophobe and racist for doing that.  So Biden would have done less.  So I'm voting for the person who was more decisive.  Trump.  Who are you voting for?  Oh, you're European.  You can't vote. 3000 miles away. Wait, you live in Japan for years, 10,000 miles away.  Why do you care so much about Trump? Are you a liability lawyer for China?  Why don;t you ever say how well Abe of Japan and Trump get along and how strong the relationship is between our two countries.

Trump took one good measure yes, but even that one wasn't applied in a sensible way. He completely failed on all the rest.

I fully share your view about Abe, he is also a living disaster.

Have you seen these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLLlVj6we8E

Are you not concerned that your President keeps contradicting his chief scientists when what they say doesn't match his narrative? Those are American heroes trying to save lives. Why is your chief of State working against his citizens?

I am still waiting for your answer on Sweden...  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2981 on: April 27, 2020, 11:08:40 pm »

Trump took one good measure yes, but even that one wasn't applied in a sensible way. He completely failed on all the rest.

I fully share your view about Abe, he is also a living disaster.

Have you seen these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLLlVj6we8E

Are you not concerned that your President keeps contradicting his chief scientists when what they say doesn't match his narrative? Those are American heroes trying to save lives. Why is your chief of State working against his citizens?

I am still waiting for your answer on Sweden...  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Trump had to listen to his economic experts who warned him, if he needed warning, that a shutdown of the American economy would create a dire condition.  He also listened to his scientists who warned him about the virus.  So he made an in-between decision at first shutting down travel from China, then Europe and GB.  He waited until it became clear that the virus was going to be a real killer so then he shut down the economy with governor's support. 

As others have indicated here, people are dying and will be starving from the shutdown.  Les mentioned that in Canada, the shutdown of elective surgery alone will kill more Canadians than the virus did.  So shutting down an economy isn't even just an economic issue.  It's a life and death issue as well.  The entire world is re-starting their economies.  They're not waiting for the virus to be gone.  They're all taking chances because they understand that starvation kills people too.  I suppose you're right and the whole world is wrong.  Well, you're not in charge.  Time to move on.  You seem stuck in the past.

I never said Abe was a disaster. I don't have time to view more videos about him.  I don't have the same interest in your leader as you do in mine.

I've lost track about your question on Sweden.  If you'd like to repeat it, I'll take a look into it. 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2982 on: April 27, 2020, 11:37:53 pm »

Trump had to listen to his economic experts who warned him, if he needed warning, that a shutdown of the American economy would create a dire condition.  He also listened to his scientists who warned him about the virus.  So he made an in-between decision at first shutting down travel from China, then Europe and GB.  He waited until it became clear that the virus was going to be a real killer so then he shut down the economy with governor's support. 

As others have indicated here, people are dying and will be starving from the shutdown.  Les mentioned that in Canada, the shutdown of elective surgery alone will kill more Canadians than the virus did.  So shutting down an economy isn't even just an economic issue.  It's a life and death issue as well.  The entire world is re-starting their economies.  They're not waiting for the virus to be gone.  They're all taking chances because they understand that starvation kills people too.  I suppose you're right and the whole world is wrong.  Well, you're not in charge.  Time to move on.  You seem stuck in the past.

I never said Abe was a disaster. I don't have time to view more videos about him.  I don't have the same interest in your leader as you do in mine.

I've lost track about your question on Sweden.  If you'd like to repeat it, I'll take a look into it.

Shutting down an economy too late has major consequences, totally agree with you on this.

What you have to think about is whether you want the guy who has made this enormous error of judgement to continue doing more damage much longer. It's essential to understand what happened in the past to take the right decisions in the future. And you are apparently still not willing to look at what happened and at what is happening today in front of your eyes in an objective fashon.

The questions on Sweden are in post #2958, quoted once again for your convenience:

Why don’t you explain in detail what Sweden is doing (don’t forget to mention free heathcare for all with best in class hospitals), what part of it works (don’t forget the start early part), what doesn’t and how it would apply to the US?

You must be an expert considering how often you mentioned it.

By the way, I assume you realize the irony of citing Sweden as a model since it’s the country on which Sanders bases his proposals...


Cheers,
Bernard

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2983 on: April 28, 2020, 02:27:31 am »

.... Once again, I am open to criticism regarding my methods.

Like crime, population density is highly localized. It is absurd to look at, say, Australia, as a single entity, population-wise. Vast barren areas, and a few population-dense hotspots. The same in the States: NY vs. South Dakota, Utah, etc.

LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2984 on: April 28, 2020, 02:52:55 am »

As others have indicated here, people are dying and will be starving from the shutdown.  Les mentioned that in Canada, the shutdown of elective surgery alone will kill more Canadians than the virus did. So shutting down an economy isn't even just an economic issue.  It's a life and death issue as well.  The entire world is re-starting their economies.  They're not waiting for the virus to be gone.  They're all taking chances because they understand that starvation kills people too.  I suppose you're right and the whole world is wrong.  Well, you're not in charge.  Time to move on.  You seem stuck in the past.

This was actually not an officially published number, merely my own estimate, based on 100,000 postponed elective surgeries.The total number of postponed surgeries will be actually higher by the time the hospitals restart the operating rooms. In the meantime, I researched it more, and right in the first report I stumbled upon, I found that my guess was very close. (2767 average annual deaths due to delays, based on 44,273 additional deaths over 16 year period, compared with 2700 Covid-19 deaths as of April 27, 2020). It was an older study, estimating the number of Canadian lives that may have been lost to increases in wait times between 1993 and 2009. The summary report (see the link below) is clear, quite comprehensive and well written.

Quote
In this period during wait times for medically necessary elective care lengthened considerably. The study found that over that 16-year period, increases in wait times for medically necessary elective treatment may be associated with 44,273 additional female deaths (with a 95% confidence interval from 25,456 to 63,090). This represents approximately 2.5% of total female deaths during the period or 1.2% of total mortality (male and female) during the period.

This estimated increase in the Canadian mortality rate associated with waiting for medical treatment was likely unnecessary and is the result of a health-policy regime that imposes longer wait times on Canadians than are found in the universal-access healthcare systems of other developed nations. Understanding the association between wait times for medical care and death at the population level is critical if we are to more fully understand the consequences of the lengthy delays Canadians endure when accessing medically necessary care.

Waiting for medically necessary care is not a benign process and can have important consequences both for patients and for those who care for and rely upon them. Delayed access to medical care may subject patients to increased pain, suffering, and mental anguish. Waiting for health care can also have broader economic consequences such as increased absenteeism, reduced productivity, and reduced ability to work for the individual waiting as well as for family members and friends who are concerned for them or may be called to assist them with activities of daily living. Waiting may also lead to poorer outcomes from care, if not a requirement for more complex treatments, as a result of deterioration in the patients’ condition while they wait for treatment. Such deterioration may also result in permanent disability.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/effect-of-wait-times-on-mortality-in-canada.pdf

Wait times for health care in Canada have lengthened considerably over the past two decades. Across 12 major medical specialties, the estimated typical wait time has risen from 9.3 weeks in 1993 to 18.2 weeks in 2013. It is quite possible, that the current stoppage of the elective surgeries in Canada will result in much longer wait times and more deaths than in the aforementioned study.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 03:21:12 am by LesPalenik »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2985 on: April 28, 2020, 03:29:50 am »

I'm sorry you don't agree with my views.  That's what makes a horse race.

I have precisely zero interest in your "views". It's your recital of falsehoods as facts which is of concern. "chemotherapy contains nuclear waste"; "fibreglass causes lung cancer". Stuff like that.

Jeremy
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2986 on: April 28, 2020, 06:21:17 am »


s


No, no, NO, Peter.  Those are counterfeit banners.  Those aren't real banners, they're fakes.  Trump's re-election committee told us so.

Just because they say "Trump" and "Make America Great Again" and appear to be several feet wide doesn't mean they're real.

They can't be for the Trump 2020 campaign because they clearly told us that all their campaign materials are made in America.  But just think of the market for those counterfeit banners! Why, they can be used by everybody!  The market is limitless. That's why it's so profitable to make all these counterfeit banners and ship 'em across the globe. They're gonna sell like hotcakes, everywhere!  Sheer genius on somebody's part.

Besides, Peter, that story is from the past.  Everyone knows those banners can't be used in 2020!  Why, that's two years ago.  Don't you know?  They expire, just like inkjet ink.

So, PeterAit, clearly those banners are not destined for this November's election. Open your eyes, man! You lefties are all the same! Do your research more carefully next time.

/s

McLennan, the forum maroon spews nonsense once again.  He simply can't handle the facts.  Maroon does not understand free enterprise and the loads of people beside the Trump campaign that sells swag.   They can buy it whereever they choose. I guess maroon has never bothered to see the number of vendor outside a Trump rally.  Nope, ya gotta remain oblivious to reality to be a good leftist as long as you have OMB virus.

Do you suppose any of this came from China?
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=trump%202020&ssPageName=GSTL
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 06:30:56 am by Craig Lamson »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2987 on: April 28, 2020, 06:25:26 am »

Shutting down travel from China...but allowing up to 40,000 people to come in while shutdown without doing any quarantining is just as good as not shutting down. Do you think any of those 40,000 people might have the virus with them? So shutting down was good...but that's where it stopped when so much more needed to be done.

Those 40k were US CITIZENS and green card holders.  They were screened and told to self quarenteen for 14 days. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2988 on: April 28, 2020, 06:44:53 am »

Shutting down an economy too late has major consequences, totally agree with you on this.

What you have to think about is whether you want the guy who has made this enormous error of judgement to continue doing more damage much longer. It's essential to understand what happened in the past to take the right decisions in the future. And you are apparently still not willing to look at what happened and at what is happening today in front of your eyes in an objective fashon.

The questions on Sweden are in post #2958, quoted once again for your convenience:

Why don’t you explain in detail what Sweden is doing (don’t forget to mention free heathcare for all with best in class hospitals), what part of it works (don’t forget the start early part), what doesn’t and how it would apply to the US?

You must be an expert considering how often you mentioned it.

By the way, I assume you realize the irony of citing Sweden as a model since it’s the country on which Sanders bases his proposals...


Cheers,
Bernard

What Sweden is doing fighting the virus you can find on the web.  I'm not your search engine.  Regarding Sanders,  Sweden's economic system has nothing to do with fighting the coronavirus?

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2989 on: April 28, 2020, 06:51:26 am »

This was actually not an officially published number, merely my own estimate, based on 100,000 postponed elective surgeries.The total number of postponed surgeries will be actually higher by the time the hospitals restart the operating rooms. In the meantime, I researched it more, and right in the first report I stumbled upon, I found that my guess was very close. (2767 average annual deaths due to delays, based on 44,273 additional deaths over 16 year period, compared with 2700 Covid-19 deaths as of April 27, 2020). It was an older study, estimating the number of Canadian lives that may have been lost to increases in wait times between 1993 and 2009. The summary report (see the link below) is clear, quite comprehensive and well written.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/effect-of-wait-times-on-mortality-in-canada.pdf

Wait times for health care in Canada have lengthened considerably over the past two decades. Across 12 major medical specialties, the estimated typical wait time has risen from 9.3 weeks in 1993 to 18.2 weeks in 2013. It is quite possible, that the current stoppage of the elective surgeries in Canada will result in much longer wait times and more deaths than in the aforementioned study.

I hope Americans learn about wait times in Canada before the approve national medical care.  I am learning how frustrating it can be now.  Right now, many over-the-counter drugs are back-ordered for a month and longer. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2990 on: April 28, 2020, 07:11:00 am »

I have precisely zero interest in your "views". It's your recital of falsehoods as facts which is of concern. "chemotherapy contains nuclear waste"; "fibreglass causes lung cancer". Stuff like that.

Jeremy
I'm being rhetorical and edgy to make a point.  If people don't understand, that's their problem. This isn't a court of law.  It's the "Playpen", a word you assigned, not me.   In any case, everyone here is giving their opinion.  They're not facts.  Are we going to have the "fact police"?

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2991 on: April 28, 2020, 08:28:44 am »

Of course, how many died is beside the point. That's fake news from CNN. The issue is will herd immunity gained from not shutting down help them in the future when and if the virus returns?

Sweden says its coronavirus approach has worked. The numbers suggest a different story
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2992 on: April 28, 2020, 08:31:02 am »

chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2993 on: April 28, 2020, 08:31:55 am »

Those 40k were US CITIZENS and green card holders.  They were screened and told to self quarenteen for 14 days.

And how well did that work out?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2994 on: April 28, 2020, 08:33:19 am »

I agree that one counter example is sufficient to disprove a simple logical statement but I disagree that this is applicable to demonstrate that the time it takes in the US is a proof of the ineffectiveness of the lock down.

You are overlooking the facts that:
- the late start of the lock down explains very well what we are seeing in the US. This isn’t rocket science, you start late you let an exponential spread occur with a much higher absolute number of cases. You can blame your President for that
- the lock down is starting to show benefits, for example in NY

I understand the economic impacts and the urge to reopen but you should talk to the guy who caused all this, Trump Xi Jinping.



Cheers,
Bernard

Fixed it for you. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2995 on: April 28, 2020, 08:35:30 am »

Shutting down travel from China...but allowing up to 40,000 people to come in while shutdown without doing any quarantining is just as good as not shutting down. Do you think any of those 40,000 people might have the virus with them? So shutting down was good...but that's where it stopped when so much more needed to be done.

This is just false. 

You are suggesting that we ban US citizens from entering the country, which is crazy and unconstitutional.  You're clutching at straws here.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2996 on: April 28, 2020, 08:41:00 am »

This is just not going to go away, no matter how much the media tries to cover for Biden.  And they are covering for him; not a single interviewer asked Biden or any of his VP choices about this assault allegation.

John Cusack calls on Bernie Sanders to 'un endorse' Joe Biden, reopen his campaign for president

The Dems are playing with fire and more then likely will get Berned. 

There was a story about two weeks ago about how the media never really properly vetted Biden since his poll numbers dropped so much.  Essentially the press assumed he was a goner, so why bother, especially with the savior Bloomberg coming to rescue the Dems.  Well, Bloomberg flopped, Bernie shot up, everyone said "oh shit! who's left," and in a panic "we have to give it to Biden."  Not a good way to pick the head of your party.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 08:46:16 am by JoeKitchen »
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William Walker

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2997 on: April 28, 2020, 08:51:47 am »

Like crime, population density is highly localized. It is absurd to look at, say, Australia, as a single entity, population-wise. Vast barren areas, and a few population-dense hotspots. The same in the States: NY vs. South Dakota, Utah, etc.

I did that for Joe's benefit, as I said in the post, he has a "theory" about that....

It seems to me that the countries that acted early with strict lockdowns - at the very least - were able to buy time.... other countries wasted the time they had.
The other thing that seems to be coming through with regards to the severity of the individual's symptoms is the size of the "dose" you get...and that is where population density plays it's part too. i.e. the more people you come into contact with, the more doses you're  likely to get, the more severe your infection.

Having said that, Australia also has high-density areas and still they have done very well.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 09:04:07 am by William Walker »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2998 on: April 28, 2020, 09:18:19 am »

What Sweden is doing fighting the virus you can find on the web.  I'm not your search engine.  Regarding Sanders,  Sweden's economic system has nothing to do with fighting the coronavirus?

As expected...

You are nowhere to be found as soon as the discussion becomes concrete.

Cheers,
Bernard

PeterAit

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #2999 on: April 28, 2020, 09:29:46 am »


 Les mentioned that in Canada, the shutdown of elective surgery alone will kill more Canadians than the virus did.


Now that's just plain ridiculous. By definition, elective surgery is for situations that don't pose a serious health risk.
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