PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[JoeKitchen]

There is absolutely no data whatsoever demonstrating that lock downs do nothing.

On the other hand we have many comparisons showing that lock downs do help very significantly.

Slobodan provided us recently with eye opening figures showing that the level of contagion is similar in highly populated and urban States that did a lock down compared to low density States that didn't do a lock down. That is the US and is as much evidence as you'll ever need.

A recent scientific study in France demonstrated quite convincingly that the lock down reduced the number of casualties by a factor of 6.

Cheers,
Bernard

All the data here is showing that there is no correlation between lock downs and stopping the spread Bernard.  On top of that, Sweden is a perfect counter example to your France study.  They are middle of road in terms of death rate. 

I'd be willing to bet in the second wave, they will fair much better then the rest of us due to their lack of a lockdown. 

[elliot_n]

Increased hand washing, decrease crowd size, etc.  Start playing Sweden, which is what everyone will be doing eventually. 

Sweden's strategy is based on the good sense of its citizens. That's not going to work in America.

As Craig said upthread: 'I won't speak of other Nations but there is a real stubborn streak in many Americans and for lots of people here just said screw it, I'll do as I please.'

The Swedes aren't like that.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Increased hand washing, decrease crowd size, etc.  Start playing Sweden, which is what everyone will be doing eventually.

The death-toll in Sweden has started rising, with no clear slowdown AFAIK.

[JoeKitchen]

I have asked you the question several times before, but you always declined to answer it.

Why is Obama the worst and Trump the best?

Also, if you lived in Las Vegas, would you be voting for the current mayor at the next opportunity?

Cheers,
Bernard

Here are some. 

Six Reasons Why Barack Obama Is the Worst President in History

I'd also add in horrible foreign relations that made us look weak.  Being kind and gentle with your adversaries does not earn you respect, it gets you just the opposite.  This was proven with Chamberlain and Hitler, and again proved with Obama and Iran.  Plus, you dont just load pallots of money on a plane in the middle of the night and fly it to one of your enemies.

[JoeKitchen]

Sweden's strategy is based on the good sense of its citizens. That's not going to work in America.

As Craig said upthread: 'I won't speak of other Nations but there is a real stubborn streak in many Americans and for lots of people here just said screw it, I'll do as I please.'

The Swedes aren't like that.

LOL, man.  There is just as much good sense in the USA as in Sweden, and there are just as many reckless people in Sweden as in the USA.  It is the same with any country. 

Your country, England, had plenty of stories of people scoffing this, as did Canada. 

At a certain point in time, you will need to just let go and trust your fellow citizens, like Sweden.  Like I said, it is impossible to stay locked down until a vaccine is created, if it ever is.  We will be playing Sweden sooner or later. 

[Robert Roaldi]

LOL, man.  There is just as much good sense in the USA as in Sweden, and there are just as many reckless people in Sweden as in the USA.  It is the same with any country. 

Your country, England, had plenty of stories of people scoffing this, as did Canada. 

At a certain point in time, you will need to just let go and trust your fellow citizens, like Sweden.  Like I said, it is impossible to stay locked down until a vaccine is created, if it ever is.  We will be playing Sweden sooner or later.

No, of course you won't get 100% compliance. What's the point of re-stating this repeatedly. Everyone understands it. No one single measure is the magic bullet. You super-impose many different tactics. Why do we need to keep repeating these things that should be pretty obvious by now.

[Manoli]

Go on boys, chew on this ...



Deaths per 100,000

Belgium   62
UK          31
Sweden   22
USA        17
Germany 7.1
Greece    1.3

[Robert Roaldi]

Article from politico.com about the sorry state of PPEs in many hospitals. Seems to me that this should have been fixed by now. This is a logistics problem, it would be good use of military quartermaster corps, isn't that what they do? https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/26/trump-ppe-fake-news-207523. I think this is a pretty clear case where coordination by one office could have helped everyone. Instead, every state and every hospital is on its own, a misalignment, it seems to me. Not the right tool for the job.

[JoeKitchen]

No, of course you won't get 100% compliance. What's the point of re-stating this repeatedly. Everyone understands it. No one single measure is the magic bullet. You super-impose many different tactics. Why do we need to keep repeating these things that should be pretty obvious by now.

Because the major thing we are doing is destroying the economy and not really doing anything!

[Manoli]

I'd also add in horrible foreign relations that made us look weak.  Being kind and gentle with your adversaries does not earn you respect, it gets you just the opposite.

Joe - I hate to break it to you, but the US has never looked weaker.

Israeli  historian and philosopher Yuval Noah Harari for commenting  to the coronavirus crisis. on The Late Late Show with James Corden

“Greece is doing an amazing job in containing this epidemic,” Harari said in an interview on CBS’s Late Late Show with James Corden in an online discussion about the coronavirus and its impact on humanity.

“If I had to choose between Greece and the United States for who should be leading the world now, giving us a plan of action, I would definitely choose Greece,” the Israeli philosopher added, saying that “when you look at the actual response of the US, in its own house, to the epidemic, maybe it’s not such a bad thing that it’s not responsible for the world.”


https://youtu.be/sRRhvwkV7L0
9:55 on

Edit:
Attached a USA demographic.

[JoeKitchen]

Article from politico.com about the sorry state of PPEs in many hospitals. Seems to me that this should have been fixed by now. This is a logistics problem, it would be good use of military quartermaster corps, isn't that what they do? https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/26/trump-ppe-fake-news-207523. I think this is a pretty clear case where coordination by one office could have helped everyone. Instead, every state and every hospital is on its own, a misalignment, it seems to me. Not the right tool for the job.

Well, when this thing started in China, they confiscated all PPE being manufactured there from foreign companies, and are now trying to sell our stolen goods back to us at higher costs. 

Additionally, here in the USA we anti-gauging laws, where you just can not raise the price of an item during an emergency.  Although this sounds responsible, it takes away the incentive for companies to cut current production and start manufacturing these things.  So it does not damage then good.

[JoeKitchen]

Joe - I hate to break it to you, but the US has never looked weaker.

Are you telling me a liberal philosopher is against the USA? 

Anyway, how does this have anything to do with foreign relations and being tough with adversaries, like Iran or Hitler? 

FYI, the population density of Greece is much lower then the USA states most effected.  Athens has a population density 2/3 of NYC.  Also, how much of Athens relies on the Metro compared to NYC?  I dont know; just asking. 

[BernardLanguillier]

Are you telling me a liberal philosopher is against the USA? 

He is not against the USA. He is critical of the Trump administration.

This is very very very different.

If you had even a tiny bit of respect for your own country you would not equate the permanent disgrace Trump is to the nation he is busy turning into a shadow of its own self.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I have asked you the question several times before, but you always declined to answer it.

Why is Obama the worst and Trump the best?

I did answer that, at least for the Muslim-lover, a few posts above.

[faberryman]

Anyway, how does this have anything to do with foreign relations and being tough with adversaries, like Iran or Hitler?

Hitler? You mean like WWII? You mean like 80 years ago? It's like me telling you I'm in great shape because I ran a pretty fast mile in high school.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...  Slobodan provided us recently with eye opening figures showing that the level of contagion is similar in highly populated and urban States that did a lock down compared to low density States that didn't do a lock down....

I don't remember that's the conclusion of what I provided. I think I provided a study showing that the speed of lockdowns are not correlated with the number of fatalities.

[chez]

I am not suggesting that, just merely pointing out that lock downs will not duplicate the effects of lower population density like people hope, not by any stretch. 

So, since it is looking more and more every day lock downs do nothing, there is no point in continuing them.

Well there are large population densities in both South Korea and China...yet with lock downs they've tamed the outbreaks. So there facts staring right at you that shows lock downs work.

[chez]

Sweden's strategy is based on the good sense of its citizens. That's not going to work in America.

As Craig said upthread: 'I won't speak of other Nations but there is a real stubborn streak in many Americans and for lots of people here just said screw it, I'll do as I please.'

The Swedes aren't like that.

This is very evident by the people screwing the distancing and rushing to the beaches. I can just imagine if the lock downs were lifted...party time.

[faberryman]

This is very evident by the people screwing the distancing and rushing to the beaches. I can just imagine if the lock downs were lifted...party time.

We'll find out in the next week or two. Most states will be opening back up whether they meet the CDC guidelines or not. I hope the whole thing doesn't spiral out of control again. Trump has lost interest and is giving up. It's not worth the effort. Que sera, sera.

[JoeKitchen]

Hitler? You mean like WWII? You mean like 80 years ago? It's like me telling you I'm in great shape because I ran a pretty fast mile in high school.

Lessons of the past often pop up again.  If you try to appease your adversaries with gifts, like the Sudetenland, thinking that it will earn you respect you will be wrong.  They will instead look at you as being weak, just like Hitler did of Chamberlain afterwards. 

Same thing happened with Obama and Iran.  Iran did not respect us after Obama's appeasements; this become blatantly obvious through Irans attacks on us and our allies.