PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Alan Klein]

If you'd concentrated on the stream of ignorant, evidence-free xenophobic drivel that he's been compulsively posting here for what seems like years, fab, you wouldn't need to ask that question.

Jeremy

Jeremy, Maybe if it was a Brit who the North Koreans destroyed rather than an innocent young American boy, you'd feel different about it.  But this is about a leader, Kim, who also had his half-brother killed in an airport by having poison smeared on his face and other enemies killed with anti-aircraft machine guns and then eaten by dogs.  The world does not run on the niceties of a legal system you're acquainted with. Our day to day decisions are made on the fly, gut instincts, that both governments and that you and I make every day.  There are no lawyers, no judges, no courts, no legal system, no proof.   

I have no ill will toward the Koreans or Chinese people. However, being Xenophobic about the North Korean or Chinese Communist regime is being smart.   Anyone who doesn't respect the brutalness of Xi or Kim and their methods is ignoring proof they've already provided.  We'd be ignoring those facts at our peril.   

[Alan Klein]

It's impossible to prove the "what if" scenarios, but what we know for sure that the Washington state after the initial outbreak instituted very strict rules and thus avoided a large outbreak, whereas New York state was quite initially lackadaisical and ended up with a large number of infections. Of course, there were also other factors in play, but if you start with a large cast you end up with many casualties. Similar as with growth of governments - large governments grow faster than the small ones.

Fauci already answered that question.    He said that of course, if we shut down and isolated from the beginning, there would be less infections.  That's obvious.  The question is when was it appropriate to do it?  A country doesn't shut down because a few people get sick.  Honest men can argue over the best point it should be done.
Arguing when it should have been done over and over does nothing for the future.  In the US, we're already starting to reopen things; in Canada too where you live.  Rather than rehashing the same old things that no one can do anything about, it would be more fruitful if ideas were discussed in how we are going to deal with a very dire future both medically and economically. 

For example, the new additional  $500 billions the US Congress just passed provides no funding to states that are going broke, including my state of NY who my wife and I depend on for pensions and security retirement plans.  How is Canada going to do similar funding when the economies of the world tank into depression.  We can't change history.  But we all better start thinking about the future because things aren't going back the way they were.  It's not just waiters and bus boys who will lose their jobs.  It's going to be across the board.  As Slobo mentioned about his daughter and other people, there are going to be huge struggle ahead for all groups.  Everyone who wants Trump to fail is just shooting themselves in their foot.  That's what the whole argument about when we should have shut down is all about.  The election.  But, if the economies of the world don't get back on track, we'll have more than elections to worry about. 

[JoeKitchen]

Trump: "I have instructed the United States Navy to shoot down and destroy any and all Iranian gunboats if they harass our ships at sea."

Does Iran having flying gunboats?

Come on now, you really dont know what he means? 

You're really trying to clutch at air here. 

[Alan Klein]

It is a simple calculation that the increase of engagement with infected people increases the number of infections.
The infections in the Netherlands were caused by :
1 the transportation to our country by Dutch tourists from ski areas in the alps - Italy and Austria.
2 the celebration of Carnaval a bit later-. That is held mostly in the south east.
3 after that it spread through the country up north.
The lockdown prevented it from getting much worse.

the yellow provinces in the North east and south west are the areas with the least economic activity.

Update: Our heath institute has calculated that without the lockdown ( issued 13th of march) we would have had 10X as many people going to the intensive care.
That would have created chaos as we have seen in Italy were not enough beds were available and doctors had to choose between life and death.

I'm glad you saved so many of your countrymen.  How many are now unemployed?  How is your country going to deal with the economic conditions wrought by this disease?

[Alan Klein]

You're exhibiting signs of ideology gone mad, the same thing you often accuse others of. Attempting to make this a constitutional rights issue is overreach. You've latched onto an idea and now won't back down, something that you probably think of as steadfastness but which from the outside looks like petulance.

If a society can't band together to protect itself from outside attack, what's the point of being in it and what good is its constitution if it gets in the way of that. The very notion of asking people to refrain from some activities for while for the good of all is why humans form into communities in the first place. If this temporary state of affairs actually did cause long-term harm to your freedoms, that would not bode well for American society because it should be resilient enough to withstand this, it has withstood worse. I mean, once the infection rate is brought down people will resume their normal lives, end of story. Being drafted in WW2 or during Vietnam was a much larger imposition on individual freedom than being asked not to go to restaurants for a while. Get a grip.

You're making a mockery of Slobo's point.  It's not just not going to eat out in a restaurant.  It's about losing your means of earning a living and putting food on the table for your family.  It may not be a temporary affair but rather a multi-year depression. 

After all, the wealth and economy of a nation feeds that nation, houses their people, and cares for them, including medically.  Venezuelans have lost an average of 20 pounds each due to the failure of their economic system.  People there are living hand to mouth.  The economy is not some abstract concept we discuss in philosophy and finance classes.  What will you do if, God forbid, you lose your job and can't get one for the next two years?  These are real bread and butter issues.  If they weren't real, the US Senate wouldn't have voted unanimously for programs worth trillions to help people out.  If they don't work, and I suspect they're not or only help marginally, the whole world may lose 20 pounds.

[Alan Klein]

Trump: "I have instructed the United States Navy to shoot down and destroy any and all Iranian gunboats if they harass our ships at sea."

Does Iran having flying gunboats?

I'm sure Iranian gunboat commanders understand his directive very clearly. 

[chez]

You're making a mockery of Slobo's point.  It's not just not going to eat out in a restaurant.  It's about losing your means of earning a living and putting food on the table for your family.  It may not be a temporary affair but rather a multi-year depression. 

Well there is a pork processing plant that was operating as normal now down because so many employees were infected with the virus...so it's not so black and white how much employment there would be if the virus was allowed to run amok. Tell me, would you feel comfortable going to crowded restaurant knowing the virus is out there? So much of the work environments have never been setup to deal with a contagious virus, how happy would workers be working in these environments.

Polls in the US show the majority of people want to stay in isolation until the rates slow down. I highly doubt the economy would be untouched if we just let this virus run its course.

[Alan Klein]

Well there is a pork processing plant that was operating as normal now down because so many employees were infected with the virus...so it's not so black and white how much employment there would be if the virus was allowed to run amok. Tell me, would you feel comfortable going to crowded restaurant knowing the virus is out there? So much of the work environments have never been setup to deal with a contagious virus, how happy would workers be working in these environments.

Polls in the US show the majority of people want to stay in isolation until the rates slow down. I highly doubt the economy would be untouched if we just let this virus run its course.

You missed my point. It's not that the medical issues aren't important. They are.  But they aren't the only issue. I was responding to the poster who didn't think the economic issues were just as important.  It's not an either/or issue.  Both medical and economic issues have to be addressed. 

[faberryman]

You missed my point. It's not that the medical issues aren't important. They are.  But they aren't the only issue. I was responding to the poster who didn't think the economic issues were just as important.  It's not an either/or issue.  Both medical and economic issues have to be addressed.

NSS. I think that is pretty obvious to everyone. And don't forget Slobodan's concern: governmental overreach.

[Alan Klein]

...
I have no ill will toward the Koreans or Chinese people. However, being Xenophobic about the North Korean or Chinese Communist regime is being smart.   Anyone who doesn't respect the brutalness of Xi or Kim and their methods is ignoring proof they've already provided.  We'd be ignoring those facts at our peril.   

"The poll of 1,000 Americans found unfavorable opinions of China are shared across party lines, with about 70 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents and 60 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents holding them. In addition, the poll show that about 90 percent of those surveyed see growing Chinese power and influence as a threat."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/poll-americans-sour-china-amid-140106735.html

[Alan Klein]

NSS

What's that mean?

[faberryman]

What's that mean?

NSS is an acronym for the phrase "No shit, Sherlock." Usually a response to a comment from Captain Obvious.

[chez]

You missed my point. It's not that the medical issues aren't important. They are.  But they aren't the only issue. I was responding to the poster who didn't think the economic issues were just as important.  It's not an either/or issue.  Both medical and economic issues have to be addressed.

And they are. First phase only essential business's stayed open. Now they are looking at slowly opening up other businesses while watching affects on health.

What's going to be a difficult situation is your neighbour is back working while your work is still not allowed.

[chez]

"The poll of 1,000 Americans found unfavorable opinions of China are shared across party lines, with about 70 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents and 60 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents holding them. In addition, the poll show that about 90 percent of those surveyed see growing Chinese power and influence as a threat."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/poll-americans-sour-china-amid-140106735.html

And all these people are being fed by the American propoganda machine. Remember better dead than red mottos.

[James Clark]

Come on now, you really dont know what he means? 

You're really trying to clutch at air here.

Note:  Copy/paste for next time Biden says something stupid and Joe claims it matters.

[Alan Klein]

And they are. First phase only essential business's stayed open. Now they are looking at slowly opening up other businesses while watching affects on health.

What's going to be a difficult situation is your neighbour is back working while your work is still not allowed.

What's going to be more difficult is when your neighbor is working and you no longer have a job. 

[William Walker]

What's that mean?

Thanks for asking Alan, this old fart didn't know either!

[William Walker]

What's going to be more difficult is when your neighbor is working and you no longer have a job.

How is that worse than being dead?

[chez]

What's going to be more difficult is when your neighbor is working and you no longer have a job.

Why wouldn't they have a job? When people feel safe doing so, they'll flood to restaurants and bars. People will start buying things again, driving manufacturing. It might take a while, but things will bounce back...they always have before.

All the people I talked with are not concerned about getting a job or returning to their existing job...it's they are still scared of the virus. For things to get back on track, people need to feel safe...and that's when we have a vaccine. If we see this virus raise its head again in the fall for a second round...that is when major shit hits the fan.

[JoeKitchen]

Note:  Copy/paste for next time Biden says something stupid and Joe claims it matters.

LOL, please explain to me what he was getting at here.

"And by the way, you know I sit on the stand and it'd get hot. I got a lot of — I got hairy legs ... that turn blonde in the sun.  And the kids used to come up and reach in the pool and rub my leg down so it was straight and then watch the hair come back up again. ... So I learned about roaches and I learned about kids jumping on my lap. ... I love kids jumping on my lap,"

Even Obama had to shrug his shoulders (see half way down).