PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[JoeKitchen]

Venezuela's Chavez went to Cuba for his cancer work; he could have gone anywhere in the world.

Raul may or may not be accurate; he may or may not have his personal, political, agenda. Why do you take his point of view as gospel, but deny the views of anyone who isn't Republican the validity of their points of view?

I'm British, lived there a long time and still have my adult childen working there. I was a life-long Conservative until the Brexit débâcle revealed the festering malaise beneath the smooth exterior carapace. Unable to contain themselves, the powers behind the charming, sophisticated face showed themselves for the first time for the merciless, greedy shits that they really are. I am now without political allegiances and the world reveals itself as a different place to the one I had been conditioned to see through my traditional blue specs. And no, despite Slobodan's funny quips, those new glass are not pink: they are clear and devoid of tint.

LOL, that is rich. 

Do you actually think the service that was given to Chavez, leader of a country that was pretty much giving Cuba oil for free, was the same as what the average Cuban got.  You are joking yourself if you think so. 

You know Rob, if you go to Cuba, they make you buy health insurance, typically part of your ticket price.  It's not that expensive and covers a lot.  Judging by your thoughts, many would be flying to Cuba and then go to the hospital in droves for treatment.  Funny I dont read about this anywhere though. 

I take Raul's opinion because he is a Cuban and would know a lot better then you or Chez.  Not to mention his account is similar to everything I have read on the Cuban healthcare system when you actually rip off the communist veneer. 

Last, considering the abject state of Havana, Cuba's prime city, how both Old Havana and Central Havana are literally crumbling into the street, with buildings in such condition that they would have been condemned decades ago anywhere else yet with people still living in them, I highly doubt they would have the money or the caring to actually build a robust healthcare system.

[JoeKitchen]

Several states have had protests by these tea party fruitcakes. I've seen news reports that said "several thousand" showed up for the protest in Lansing. There are about 10 million Michigan residents. If ten thousand showed up for protest (and I think that would be a large over-estimate) then about 9,990,000 didn't. In fact, the people who showed up at the protest were probably the same bunch of tea party fruitcakes who show up at Trump rallies. So, I don't think either Whitmer or the Democrats are sweating it.

Tell us how you really think about Americans engaging in their rights. 

Keep it up and Trump will win easy. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I found last night’s press conference reassuring. Trump has finally adopted all of the WHO pandemic guidelines...

Given that WHO is just a propaganda arm of the Chinese Communist Party, adopting their guidelines will be like living in Vichy France.

[Rob C]

It seems strange to a native speaker of English (and to those of many other languages), but for most Spanish speakers the "b" and "v" sounds are often pronounced identically.  Or, perhaps more precisely, most native speakers won't hear a significant difference if you pronounce the sound as a plosive or a fricative.  So the word for 20, veinte, can be pronounced as "v'yente" or "b'yente" in most Latin American countries, and the locals will know what you mean.  (Unless your norteamericano accent is as obvious as mine, in which case they probably won't have a clue what you are trying to say in any event.)  And if you are an English speaker, you may hear either sound depending on your interlocutor's accent.

I am led to believe that the b sound comes from the Barcelona area - the Catalan language influence on the Castilian official lingo. The word vamos comes across as bamos, though it's written the same way with a v in both languages.

Language is one of the running sores in Spanish politics. Here in Mallporca, they also speak Mallorquin which is a kind of Catalan; some say it's identical and others not so. Anyway, for a while, doctors from the mainland - where the official Castilian is the language of education - were being denied work here in the Mallorcan national health system unless they also spoke Catalan. Most on the mainland would find little reason to want to do that. The absurdity of the matter is this: I have never in my life come across a Mallorcan citizen who doesn't speak Castilian too. Sure, they chatter at home - probably - in Mallorquin/Catalan but that is choice. So there you go: for political ideology the island denies itself some of the best medical brains.

However, I did read something new a while ago on this matter, and I think it has been put on hold, and for the time being, docs don't need this obscure (I duck!) version of Spanish to work here.

[William Walker]

What I find distressful is how so many aren't blaming the Chinese. They'd rather focus on blaming Trump as if he had something to do with the deaths in Italy, Spain and elsewhere. The perfidy of China in first releasing it and then deliberately lying about what it was and what happened, delayed proper response by the world.  While they blocked Wuhan travelers from leaving Wuhan province to other parts of China, they criminally let these people travel to other parts of the world carrying the disease. One wonders if they figured it might give them a bump in moving into the #1 spot economically and strategically in the world.  I for one, wouldn't put it past them.

Yes Alan, I don't think, when this is all over and the dust has settled, that anyone is going to forget where and why this whole thing started.
China must be taken to task, but in a calm non-political manner. Our country, and others, have been fighting the poaching of our animals (including pangolins) for the Chinese markets for a long time now. If they want to be part of the world then they should assume all the responsibilities that go with that.

I note that they revised the Wuhan death-rate up by ~50%.... It then causes one to worry about any information coming from a source that can't be trusted.

[Rob C]

Since we are all here old farts, an observation. Those who are frantically in favor of lockdowns are mostly pensioners. They've been in a lockdown ever since they retired. Sitting at home, rocking the chair, watching TV reruns. Going out once a week to Costco. The current lockdown is a piece of cake for them. Their checks are coming regularly. Not much has changed in their life. That's why they couldn't care less about the working population, those living paycheck to paycheck, the lack of which is devastating for them. Those are the people that have to go out, hustle, fight to be able to pay the next rent, feed the family. Small business owners losing their business. Young folks whose careers will be set back for years. Graduates who will wait years for the first job. In the meantime, our dear pensioners will rock their chair, with beer in hand, watching favorite reruns.

Blanket bombing!

Pensioners are as varied as the currently working population. If, as do I, you depend on a state pension, you are extremely concerned about how well the economy goes: it is what pays and funds that little monthly transfer that whilst incapable of supporting one, does go a long way to keeping the regular withdrawls from savings as low as possible. And hey, I own my property and apart from a small car in which I have done less than 32,000 klicks in ten years, have no excesses in life with their attendant costs. I live a simple, basic life and it still costs a lot of money. Far from sitting on my ass, I am as anxious today about income as ever I was; instead of living paycheck to paycheck, as you colour those in work, I live from pension cheque to pension cheque. And I get free medical attention.

I know what I was paying for private medicine ten years ago; today, even at that old price, it would have wiped me out.

The horrors you describe about earning a living are not news to me: I was a self-employed photographer; I undersand the deal. I have often remarked that one of the "opportunities" all people should have in life is a year of obligatory self-employment in whatever sphere they wish. Better than any kind of obligatory miltary service it would open their eyes to what it takes to stand on one's own feet and make things happen for you, and how vapidly empty much of the shit people talk about "rights".

[Rob C]

Exactly!

Hate to break it to you, Joe: you're wrong again.

[LesPalenik]

LOL, that is rich. 

Do you actually think the service that was given to Chavez, leader of a country that was pretty much giving Cuba oil for free, was the same as what the average Cuban got.  You are joking yourself if you think so. 

You know Rob, if you go to Cuba, they make you buy health insurance, typically part of your ticket price.  It's not that expensive and covers a lot.  Judging by your thoughts, many would be flying to Cuba and then go to the hospital in droves for treatment.  Funny I dont read about this anywhere though. 

When it comes to cancer, some oncologists in Cuba perform treatments that are not done in other countries.

A Regina woman who was diagnosed with lung cancer and given a year to live says she’s now in remission thanks to a vaccine she received in Cuba.

Judy Bryden, who received the devastating diagnosis in 2016, travelled to Cuba last year to receive treatment and pick up several doses of the CIMAvax EGF vaccine.  The vaccine was developed for non-small cell lung cancer, which represents up to 85 per cent of all lung cancers.

After taking the vaccine doses over several months, Bryden said a recent scan of her lungs found no cancer.

CimaVax is a Cuban-patented drug aimed at preventing the recurrence of lung cancer. It helps the body generate its own immune system in a way that starves the cancer and stops it from growing.

The vaccine has been administered to thousands of Cubans and could benefit many U.S. patients through the first joint U.S.-Cubabio technology venture setup last year for clinical trials.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/lung-cancer-patient-says-she-s-now-in-remission-thanks-to-cuban-vaccine-1.3842678

https://america.cgtn.com/2019/09/18/cuba-uses-comprehensive-plan-to-fight-cancer

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... If, as do I, you depend on a state pension, you are extremely concerned about how well the economy goes: it is what pays and funds that little monthly transfer...

Oh, please, Rob! Your check, as well as mine, are guaranteed.

If you would be indeed "extremely" concerned for the economy, you wouldn't call for everyone else to be put in house arrest for months or the rest of the year.

[elliot_n]

I note that they revised the Wuhan death-rate up by ~50%.... It then causes one to worry about any information coming from a source that can't be trusted.

Many countries will be revising their figures upward to account for the deaths of people home-alone or in care homes.

[William Walker]

How does this fit into their cunning plan? Alan? I'm sure you will have a theory.

[JoeKitchen]

When it comes to cancer, some oncologists in Cuba perform treatments that are not done in other countries.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/lung-cancer-patient-says-she-s-now-in-remission-thanks-to-cuban-vaccine-1.3842678

https://america.cgtn.com/2019/09/18/cuba-uses-comprehensive-plan-to-fight-cancer

And this does nothing to negate the actual poor health system in Cuba and the utter poor conditions of the hospitals. 

I can post articles too!  Al Jazeer, a fairly non-biased source, agree?   

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

During the period when the Cuban government received generous subsidies from the former Soviet Union, the system more or less worked well. Hospitals were clean and, although they did not have state-of-the-art equipment, people could rely on them.

But after the subsidies ended and Cuba's economy went into a tailspin, nothing was the same again.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Back to Rob's example, Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

The system is free, but it is neither fast nor efficient for two important reasons. One is obviously the lack of financial resources, and the other - which is related to the first - is the "export" of doctors, nurses and dentists in exchange for hard currency.

I could post the entire article, but you get the point.  From the last sentence I posted, it seems the high esteem we have for Cuban Doctors, and their healthcare system, is because they ship the doctors out to make money for the regime while paying the doctors $30 to $50 a month.  You can make more in tips at a private restaurant in Havana then being a doctor.  Additionally, I would not be surprise if they ship so many doctors out for propaganda as well. 

[Paulo Bizarro]

Death is a fact (and part) of life. Life itself is a sexually transmitted, lethal disease. In the U.S., in a regular year (2017), 2.8 million people died. That is about 7,500 A DAY, EVERY DAY. I'd say my threshold is pretty high.

I will then make ajoke following your spirit: 7,500 a day is like a twin towers crash? A little bit higher than 10 car crashes in India, for that matter.

[Rob C]

LOL, that is rich. 

Do you actually think the service that was given to Chavez, leader of a country that was pretty much giving Cuba oil for free, was the same as what the average Cuban got.  You are joking yourself if you think so. 

You know Rob, if you go to Cuba, they make you buy health insurance, typically part of your ticket price.  It's not that expensive and covers a lot.  Judging by your thoughts, many would be flying to Cuba and then go to the hospital in droves for treatment.  Funny I dont read about this anywhere though. 

I take Raul's opinion because he is a Cuban and would know a lot better then you or Chez.  Not to mention his account is similar to everything I have read on the Cuban healthcare system when you actually rip off the communist veneer. 

Last, considering the abject state of Havana, Cuba's prime city, how both Old Havana and Central Havana are literally crumbling into the street, with buildings in such condition that they would have been condemned decades ago anywhere else yet with people still living in them, I highly doubt they would have the money or the caring to actually build a robust healthcare system.

Missing the point: whatever Chavez got was available, that's the point, available in Cuba.

Back when I used to read Alan's rantings I remember him wailing about how the good doctors were at the best hospitals and how money and his own insurance options would drive him into the arms of lesser doctors. So, what you knock Cuba for exists in your own wonderful land too. Or poor Alan got it wrong even back then.

Why shouldn't Cuba make foreigners pay for medical help? If you want to go to the States from Brtitain, you have to take out special health insurance policies because the usual British policies you buy for travel health purposes don't cover the States: you have to buy much dearer policies for that country. I did it for two teams on two shoots. It was bloody expensive. It is not normal practice for countries to pay for citizens of other countries to have non-emergency things done for them. When you buy insurance you have to declare your history. You can't, for example, require a stent and just go to another country expecting them to pay for it through some cheap 'n' easy travel insurance policy you just bought!

I am under no misapprehension about Cuba being a bed of roses; I am no red under anyone's bed either. For it to have fallen so far takes a lot of mistakes intenally and as many actual attempts to undermine its economy as it has had, repeatedly, from its big neighbour to the north. The USA's political hatred for anything political not made in the USA is legendary, and much worse than its obvious hatred for its own people of different political stripes.

No wonder little Cuba is broke; the wonder is that it is still strong enought not to roll onto its back and offer itself up to rape by Uncle Sam.

[JoeKitchen]

How does this fit into their cunning plan? Alan? I'm sure you will have a theory.

Their economy has been shrinking for years, they just lied about the figures.  Most economists agreed on this, and that eventually you would not be able to hide it anymore. 

There has been, as much as, a 40% vacancy in major cities for the past 5 or 6 years.  The government keeps on saying this would be taken care of with migration from rural areas to urban, but the majority of that happened in the decade prior.  This has been known for years, and if you look online for ghost cities in China, you will find a lot of examples. 

The communist thought if you built it, they would come, but not take into account there are just not enough "theys" to fill what was being built. 

There have been other well document flaws in the Chinese economy on the last 5 years if you actually paid attention to those type of stories.

From a propaganda stand point, now is the perfect time to start admitting this, since this virus can give you cover.  However, the downtown will probably turn out to be huge and made worse by businesses moving elsewhere, so the death numbers they are putting out really will make little sense to explain for the drop alone.

[Paulo Bizarro]

Since we are all here old farts, an observation. Those who are frantically in favor of lockdowns are mostly pensioners. They've been in a lockdown ever since they retired. Sitting at home, rocking the chair, watching TV reruns. Going out once a week to Costco. The current lockdown is a piece of cake for them. Their checks are coming regularly. Not much has changed in their life. That's why they couldn't care less about the working population, those living paycheck to paycheck, the lack of which is devastating for them. Those are the people that have to go out, hustle, fight to be able to pay the next rent, feed the family. Small business owners losing their business. Young folks whose careers will be set back for years. Graduates who will wait years for the first job. In the meantime, our dear pensioners will rock their chair, with beer in hand, watching favorite reruns.

Here in Portugal, after 6 weeks of lockdown, number of unemployed has raised 32,000. There are almost 1,000,000 wrokers in lay off, meaning they are working at home, or sent home (depending on the company) receiving 66% of their salary. Credit lines have been opened to support companies in risk of going belly up. Number of new cases today: 181. I can not believe that the great USofA, under the magnanimous leadearship of the guy in the cap, has not enough money to help its citizens.

The old retired farts have died in great numbers with this disease, all across the world.

[JoeKitchen]

Missing the point: whatever Chavez got was available, that's the point, available in Cuba.

Back when I used to read Alan's rantings I remember him wailing about how the good doctors were at the best hospitals and how money and his own insurance options would drive him into the arms of lesser doctors. So, what you knock Cuba for exists in your own wonderful land too. Or poor Alan got it wrong even back then.

Why shouldn't Cuba make foreigners pay for medical help? If you want to go to the States from Brtitain, you have to take out special health insurance policies because the usual British policies you buy for travel health purposes don't cover the States: you have to buy much dearer policies for that country. I did it for two teams on two shoots. It was bloody expensive. It is not normal practice for countries to pay for citizens of other countries to have non-emergency things done for them. When you buy insurance you have to declare your history. You can't, for example, require a stent and just go to another country expecting them to pay for it through some cheap 'n' easy travel insurance policy you just bought!

I am under no misapprehension about Cuba being a bed of roses; I am no red under anyone's bed either. For it to have fallen so far takes a lot of mistakes intenally and as many actual attempts to undermine its economy as it has had, repeatedly, from its big neighbour to the north. The USA's political hatred for anything political not made in the USA is legendary, and much worse than its obvious hatred for its own people of different political stripes.

No wonder little Cuba is broke; the wonder is that it is still strong enought not to roll onto its back and offer itself up to rape by Uncle Sam.

Yes, available to those who "are more equal then others."

I have no problem with foreigners paying for medical insurance in non-native countries, and feel that should be the case.  But that is not what I was getting at.  I was getting at that since Cuba requires you to buy health coverage and what is provide in that coverage is a good deal, you would think many sick people would purposely fly to Cuba to get that amazing Cuban healthcare.  But you don't hear about this, because no person in their right mind would want it, unless you "are more equal then others" and get VIP treatment, like Chavez.

And there you go, lets blame the big old bad USA for Cuba's problems, yet ignore commerce for them is open in every other country.  And I am sure if we started talking about other Latin American countries (current or fallen) that are in shambles, I would hear the argument that well the USA is too involved.  This argument holds no water as far as I am concerned.  They are in a shit storm due to their own missteps. 

PS, I am against the embargo, even though it would drastically increase the price of Habanos. 

[Rob C]

Oh, please, Rob! Your check, as well as mine, are guaranteed.

If you would be indeed "extremely" concerned for the economy, you wouldn't call for everyone else to be put in house arrest for months or the rest of the year.

l don't call for any specific timetable; that's silly because nobody knows how many people will become infected nor how long it will take for the infections to have stopped. Timetables are a nonsense; you hear about them all the time because reporters are no longer able to cover anything else and when  there is nothing to say they over-concentrate on the aspects that are able to be kicked around. When all you hear are timetables, they become important because they are ubiquitous. You can't escape them so you play variations on them, but that's all you do, play. Reality takes its own path.

Regarding guaranteed pensions: don't be so sure. I took a lot of things as guaranteed. I was wrong. It may be interesing asking the Greeks about that.

[Rob C]

And this does nothing to negate the actual poor health system in Cuba and the utter poor conditions of the hospitals. 

I can post articles too!  Al Jazeer, a fairly non-biased source, agree?   

The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare

During the period when the Cuban government received generous subsidies from the former Soviet Union, the system more or less worked well. Hospitals were clean and, although they did not have state-of-the-art equipment, people could rely on them.

But after the subsidies ended and Cuba's economy went into a tailspin, nothing was the same again.

Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.

If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.

Back to Rob's example, Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn.

The system is free, but it is neither fast nor efficient for two important reasons. One is obviously the lack of financial resources, and the other - which is related to the first - is the "export" of doctors, nurses and dentists in exchange for hard currency.

I could post the entire article, but you get the point.  From the last sentence I posted, it seems the high esteem we have for Cuban Doctors, and their healthcare system, is because they ship the doctors out to make money for the regime while paying the doctors $30 to $50 a month.  You can make more in tips at a private restaurant in Havana then being a doctor.  Additionally, I would not be surprise if they ship so many doctors out for propaganda as well.

This ain't Rob C!

[JoeKitchen]

I will then make ajoke following your spirit: 7,500 a day is like a twin towers crash? A little bit higher than 10 car crashes in India, for that matter.

Come on now, you have to use a "half day"amount  for that joke to make sense.  Only about 3000 died in the Twin Towers attack.