PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[JoeKitchen]

Not about that, although if you have body fluid on different objects you can get it that way also. Similar actually to covid. It's also quite infectious.
That quarantine of infected people is wonderful if you know about it. You quarantine people exposed to ebola just fine, similar as covid. Look at how things went went it reached US and what a close call it was, it could have been much worse. The main difference is that you are not infectious if you are not symptomatic and the mortality is significantly higher (historically ~ 50%, less with current treatments). We also have a vaccine. And so on.

Those being said, the comparison though is very valid in principle; if there is a public threat, does personal freedom trumps public safety? The answer has always been the same, but now some are trying to rewrite the history. That's where most of HAs were coming from. For crying out loud, they had some social distancing even in 1918.

LOL, of course it is different!  Vastly  different.

If it wasn't, we should be staying inside every flu season.  But we don't, because the fatality rate is so much lower, just like with COVID-19.  Not to mention, like I said before, if the rate of this virus was 50%, you wound not need to convince me to stay inside. 

The overwhelming majority of people who get this will survive, and it is looking like that survival rate is getting higher and higher each day.  Not to mention, even in the worse part of the country, we did not go over capacity even though every expert was sure it would happen regardless.  So it is time to drop this draconian measure and get back to work before we destroy the economy. 

We are ruining lives for this?  For this virus?  How about all of preliminary screenings that are being cancelled.  Think about all of the early detections we are missing for cancer over this.  Are you taking that into account?  How many lives will be lost because we stopped screenings for 3 or 4 months and just did not find the disease early enough? 

I have had a red blotch in my eye for about a month and half.  It started to go away but now is forming in another area.  I would love to go to the eye doctor to get it looked at but cant because of this mess. 

I think the main reason you are so attached to this is because politics has become like a new religion.  You are religiously attached to experts and cant except they were wrong multiple times.  I hear it all of the time from people on the left, "we have to listen to the experts!"  Yet the experts are wrong it seems just as much as anyone else. 

Insofar as the Spanish Flu of 1918, how do you know social distancing really helped?  Maybe it did not matter at all.  Maybe that flue was so deadly because they just did not have the treatments we have now. 

[Craig Lamson]

As a civil libertarian, I would have thought that you would think that testing with the possibility of getting out in two days when the test comes back would be better than no testing and having to stay the full 14 days.

I’ve no problem with testing. However since we were talking about the Americans coming home at the beginning of the outbreak, testing was simply not an option at the time. 

Looking forward, the problems of scale at airports will be a huge problem

[Chris Kern]

I'm married. And I have to isolate from both my wife and my kids when I come from work, avoiding close contact and sleeping in different rooms for several weeks now. As it happens I also have parents here who got stuck with us and I have to be very conscientious about not exposing them either, although I see myself as a time bomb.

Yes, clearly it's especially difficult for medical families.  We have friends whose daughter-in-law is a hospital emergency department pharmacist and whose son, a doctor who is a partner in a private practice, is now volunteering in the hospital where his wife works.  They both have considerable daily exposure to COVID-19 patients.  They have two daughters: one at home taking care of the household, the other staying (not far from where we live) with her elderly grandmother; her grandfather―our friend―is recovering from a recent stroke.  It seems a sense of service runs in the family.  And my impression is that they are not all that unusual.

[JoeKitchen]

Listening to a podcast with the Hoover Institute right now (and yes, I know it's conservative) and an interesting point was made.  Their is no way we can know what the fatality rate is right now.  It is obviously low, since people are not dying left and right from this, but you can not say this is more deadly then the flu without wide scale testing. 

Yet no one in the media ever questions the experts on this when they say it is 10x more deadly then the flu.  Once again, we are making decisions on unknowns instead of knowns and running around like a chicken without a head. 

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard has the logical ability of a snail.

Trump was a genius.   He got the Dems to insist he has no right to tell them how to run their states during the Pandemic.  And of course that’s the exact truth.  He never did,  He knows that. They knew that...most everyone but a few dumb non US citizens knew that. 

Trump can say whatever he wants, but that does not mean it’s true.  Do you folks think if he said he was king it would be true?

It’s really simple.  With one swift move he inoculated himself from the coming nonsense from the Dems who have the same limited mental capacity as some posters from Japan.

All of this was the call of the Governors from the beginning.

Trumped again.

Once again, I am scared by the degree of wickedness of the mental constructions you are putting together to justify whatever Trump does and says.

What isn't totally clear to me is whether you believe in what you write or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

[armand]

LOL, of course it is different!  Vastly  different.

If it wasn't, we should be staying inside every flu season.  But we don't, because the fatality rate is so much lower, just like with COVID-19.  Not to mention, like I said before, if the rate of this virus was 50%, you wound not need to convince me to stay inside. 

The overwhelming majority of people who get this will survive, and it is looking like that survival rate is getting higher and higher each day.  Not to mention, even in the worse part of the country, we did not go over capacity even though every expert was sure it would happen regardless.  So it is time to drop this draconian measure and get back to work before we destroy the economy. 

We are ruining lives for this?  For this virus?  How about all of preliminary screenings that are being cancelled.  Think about all of the early detections we are missing for cancer over this.  Are you taking that into account?  How many lives will be lost because we stopped screenings for 3 or 4 months and just did not find the disease early enough? 

I have had a red blotch in my eye for about a month and half.  It started to go away but now is forming in another area.  I would love to go to the eye doctor to get it looked at but cant because of this mess. 

I think the main reason you are so attached to this is because politics has become like a new religion.  You are religiously attached to experts and cant except they were wrong multiple times.  I hear it all of the time from people on the left, "we have to listen to the experts!"  Yet the experts are wrong it seems just as much as anyone else. 

Insofar as the Spanish Flu of 1918, how do you know social distancing really helped?  Maybe it did not matter at all.  Maybe that flue was so deadly because they just did not have the treatments we have now.

The only thing we'll agree is that the current situation is bad. Do you actually think you thought about those consequences but people who deal with these regularly didn't? I'm sure they take into much more than you think.

One last time, it's not as the flu. It's significantly worse, those who get in the hospital are worse and it's significantly more contagious. I'm talking about the cases that were know about, how many total asymptomatic cases matters just to calculate a total mortality but not how you address what you have in front of you.

The estimates are going down because measures are working.

And the last thing, you need to change your sources. How can you say the the places that got hit didn't go above capacity? You have no clue. Their ICU beds went up a ton, they are begging to get more staff. We are not talking about total number of beds.

[John Camp]

Once again, I am scared by the degree of wickedness of the mental constructions you are putting together to justify whatever Trump does and says.

What isn't totally clear to me is whether you believe in what you write or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, You're arguing against a species of religious belief. It's like arguing against the divinity of Jesus, there are no logical points or arguments that you can make that will dissuade the faithful, so there's no point in trying. Unless you're just trolling them, of course, in which case I'd heartily approve.

[JoeKitchen]

Once again, I am scared by the degree of wickedness of the mental constructions you are putting together to justify whatever Trump does and says.

What isn't totally clear to me is whether you believe in what you write or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

He makes a really great point Bernard. 

Since the comment the media have been harping on the fact that it is the governors that run the show and hold a good deal of blame.  Yesterday I believe Cuomo was on the news and got blindsided with some pretty brutal questions about how he delayed actions, especially considering De Blasio was calling for things a few days before he was. 

It knocked him off of his chain of thought for sure. 

[JoeKitchen]

The only thing we'll agree is that the current situation is bad. Do you actually think you thought about those consequences but people who deal with these regularly didn't? I'm sure they take into much more than you think.

One last time, it's not as the flu. It's significantly worse, those who get in the hospital are worse and it's significantly more contagious. I'm talking about the cases that were know about, how many total asymptomatic cases matters just to calculate a total mortality but not how you address what you have in front of you.

The estimates are going down because measures are working.

And the last thing, you need to change your sources. How can you say the the places that got hit didn't go above capacity? You have no clue. Their ICU beds went up a ton, they are begging to get more staff. We are not talking about total number of beds.

Yes, I do.  Of course they did not ignore everything, but medical experts take into account medical issues not economic.  They have even admitted as much. 

[Alan Klein]

The travel has been discounted many times by many people as not having that much of an impact overall. It was a factor, not a major one. I don't know you are harping on it.

The US will sadly have more than 2400 dead today and Canada has had a little over 1000 in total and Canada's population is 1/10th that of the USA. But I'm not happy that Canada's numbers are still trending up.

I don't understand why you are childishly trying to start a USA vs Canada argument. Are we in grade 8 now? Your daddy is bigger than mine, is that where we're at.

Nice try at avoidance and not taking responsibility.  You're the ones who are constantly attacking our president and country. Well that won;t won't work anymore.  It's time to put up or shut up.  Your PM  started 6 weeks after our president started to do something effective about the virus.  All the experts agreed that Trump's shutting down overseas travel from China, GB and Europe helped reduce the infection rate and escalation in the US.  Meanwhile, you and other Canadians have been constantly attacking the US President in this forum for stuff your own Canadian leader failed to do.  How about cleaning up your side of the street before pointing fingers at others?

[Alan Klein]

LOL, of course it is different!  Vastly  different.

If it wasn't, we should be staying inside every flu season.  But we don't, because the fatality rate is so much lower, just like with COVID-19.  Not to mention, like I said before, if the rate of this virus was 50%, you wound not need to convince me to stay inside. 

The overwhelming majority of people who get this will survive, and it is looking like that survival rate is getting higher and higher each day.  Not to mention, even in the worse part of the country, we did not go over capacity even though every expert was sure it would happen regardless.  So it is time to drop this draconian measure and get back to work before we destroy the economy. 

We are ruining lives for this?  For this virus?  How about all of preliminary screenings that are being cancelled.  Think about all of the early detections we are missing for cancer over this.  Are you taking that into account?  How many lives will be lost because we stopped screenings for 3 or 4 months and just did not find the disease early enough? 

I have had a red blotch in my eye for about a month and half.  It started to go away but now is forming in another area.  I would love to go to the eye doctor to get it looked at but cant because of this mess. 

I think the main reason you are so attached to this is because politics has become like a new religion.  You are religiously attached to experts and cant except they were wrong multiple times.  I hear it all of the time from people on the left, "we have to listen to the experts!"  Yet the experts are wrong it seems just as much as anyone else. 

Insofar as the Spanish Flu of 1918, how do you know social distancing really helped?  Maybe it did not matter at all.  Maybe that flue was so deadly because they just did not have the treatments we have now. 

Joe, it has nothing to do with experts or truth.  It's all about them taking a position, any position, that's opposite of what Trump's position is.

[Alan Klein]

Listening to a podcast with the Hoover Institute right now (and yes, I know it's conservative) and an interesting point was made.  Their is no way we can know what the fatality rate is right now.  It is obviously low, since people are not dying left and right from this, but you can not say this is more deadly then the flu without wide scale testing. 

Yet no one in the media ever questions the experts on this when they say it is 10x more deadly then the flu.  Once again, we are making decisions on unknowns instead of knowns and running around like a chicken without a head. 

Well, we're getting the news from the same people who swore for 2 1/2 years that Trump committed treason by colluded with the Russians.   Same people, different claim.

[LesPalenik]

Nice try at avoidance and not taking responsibility.  You're the ones who are constantly attacking our president and country. Well that won;t won't work anymore.  It's time to put up or shut up.  Your PM  started 6 weeks after our president started to do something effective about the virus.  All the experts agreed that Trump's shutting down overseas travel from China, GB and Europe helped reduce the infection rate and escalation in the US.  Meanwhile, you and other Canadians have been constantly attacking the US President in this forum for stuff your own Canadian leader failed to do.  How about cleaning up your side of the street before pointing fingers at others?

Just sticking to the facts - Canada having about 10 times smaller population than USA, shows in relative terms significantly fewer infections and deaths than USA or Western Europe.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-curves-compare-canada-and-other-key-nations-1.4881500

[armand]

Yes, I do.  Of course they did not ignore everything, but medical experts take into account medical issues not economic.  They have even admitted as much. 

Yes, but that's not what you were saying.

If this get's out of control, the hospitals will fill with Covid patients. If you don't have it when you go to the hospital for a different issue, chances are that you will get it. That's a very vulnerable population right there. The more they come, the more physicians will get sick, so less to take care of everybody. So, if you think that by liberalizing things other medical issues are going to be taken care off, you are in for a rude awakening.

Regarding the economy, that's why you should have together a multidisciplinary team to discuss and come up with different scenarios and see which one will hurt the least, because it will be bad regardless what we do. The only question is how bad. That's where leadership comes into play and they have to choose priorities. BUT, they have to come out and have a clear message, come up with a clear plan and rationale. From what you are saying Cuomo might be doing something close, although I don't really know because I didn't watch any.

Joe, it has nothing to do with experts or truth.  It's all about them taking a position, any position, that's opposite of what Trump's position is.

You have no idea what you even talk about. You don't listen to anybody, what I say you forget 2 replies later, and yet you have the guts to transform everything in about Trump.
I care about the best health policy that will lead to smallest human toll. Period.

[JoeKitchen]

Joe, it has nothing to do with experts or truth.  It's all about them taking a position, any position, that's opposite of what Trump's position is.

I certainly think that is the case, even with the media.

The media are not asking any hard questions what so ever of the experts, only pathetically bad gotchu questions of Trump.

I wish they would actually ask hard questions of the experts as well. 

[JoeKitchen]

Regarding the economy, that's why you should have together a multidisciplinary team to discuss and come up with different scenarios and see which one will hurt the least, because it will be bad regardless what we do. The only question is how bad. That's where leadership comes into play and they have to choose priorities. BUT, they have to come out and have a clear message, come up with a clear plan and rationale. From what you are saying Cuomo might be doing something close, although I don't really know because I didn't watch any.

Well the one person who started to go down this path and bring in economists and business experts to discuss just this is being skewered by the press for it.  I'm sure you can guess who that is. 

[chez]

Nice try at avoidance and not taking responsibility.  You're the ones who are constantly attacking our president and country. Well that won;t won't work anymore.  It's time to put up or shut up.  Your PM  started 6 weeks after our president started to do something effective about the virus.  All the experts agreed that Trump's shutting down overseas travel from China, GB and Europe helped reduce the infection rate and escalation in the US.  Meanwhile, you and other Canadians have been constantly attacking the US President in this forum for stuff your own Canadian leader failed to do.  How about cleaning up your side of the street before pointing fingers at others?

But Trudeau isn't out there with his blame gun aiming it at anything that moves...like your pres. WHO's fault, Obama's fault, CDC's fault...everyone except himself. That's typical. Trudeau sticks to the facts, relies on the experts for guidance, works closely and efficiently with the provinces and territories and is a calming voice every day during his conferences. Now contest that with Trump where it seems something controversial or upsetting results out of every one of his conferences. He's even using them to show off an election propoganda video.

Huge differences between the two leaders...and huge differences in the way the two countries are faring with this virus.

[faberryman]

Well the one person who started to go down this path and bring in economists and business experts to discuss just this is being skewered by the press for it.  I'm sure you can guess who that is.

I heard on the news tonight that Trump has elected to forego the reopen the economy committee. We should expect his plan tomorrow.

[JoeKitchen]

And it's getting more interesting. 

Sources believe coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab as part of China's efforts to compete with US

COVID-19 originated in a Wuhan laboratory not as a bioweapon, but as part of China's effort to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States, multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials tell Fox News.

This may be the "costliest government coverup of all time," one of the sources said.

The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.

Additionally, the sources tell Fox News the World Health Organization (WHO) was complicit from the beginning in helping China cover its tracks.     

[chez]

And it's getting more interesting. 

Sources believe coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab as part of China's efforts to compete with US

COVID-19 originated in a Wuhan laboratory not as a bioweapon, but as part of China's effort to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States, multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials tell Fox News.

This may be the "costliest government coverup of all time," one of the sources said.

The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.

Additionally, the sources tell Fox News the World Health Organization (WHO) was complicit from the beginning in helping China cover its tracks.     

Fake news...you believe Fox but not the NY Times or Washington Post. Who are these sources and why are they hiding. Aren't these the exact things that are used by you and others to discredit other reports?

Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot...it seems to feel fine.