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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 513208 times)

chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #100 on: April 06, 2020, 08:06:46 pm »

Yes, here also measures were taken way too late by the Prime minister in office and he will need to be held accountable for it. Or at least for all the casualties that may result from the situation.

But... as of today there are still very few severe cases in Japan. The increase of contagion numbers may simply be the result of more testing, too early to say. Today 85 persons have died from the corona in Japan.

I am sure you are as relieved as I am to see that the situation in Japan is still not too bad.

Cheers,
Bernard

Does everyone wear masks? Maybe that's the difference between the east and west.
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Manoli

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #101 on: April 06, 2020, 08:10:59 pm »

72 hours on from the USS Theodore Roosevelt / Captain Crozier affair, the 'who/how/why' is now abundantly evident.  Rather than the 'line' put forward in the closed thread, Captain rozier was dismissed at the behest of Trump and against the wishes of the Naval Command. Again.

QED.

Quote
News of Crozier's diagnosis comes on the heels of a report claiming that the top US military commander and the most senior naval officer were opposed to Crozier's dismissal but were overruled by the Trump administration.

General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Admiral Michael Gilday, the chief of naval operations, were initially opposed to the decision to fire the captain of the USS Roosevelt after his letter warning of a coronavirus outbreak leaked to the press, believing that the Navy should have allowed an investigation into the letter written by Crozier to run its course.

Defense Secretary Mark Esper initially sided with the officers, according to The Washington Post. But Esper eventually yielded to Modly, who favored immediately dismissing Crozier because he understood that is what President Trump wanted.

Modly, who made the decision on Thursday to relieve Crozier of command of the Roosevelt, reportedly told colleagues that Trump 'wants him fired'. During a coronavirus task force press conference Saturday afternoon, Trump said that the four page letter was 'inappropriate' adding that this wasn't a 'class on literature'.


Quote
“Now that’s how you send out one of the greatest captains you ever had,” remarked a sailor in the crowd. The result is the latest civil-military calamity of the Trump administration.

[...]

At first navy leaders expressed support, insisting that Captain Crozier would not face retaliation for sounding the alarm. A day later he was removed. Thomas Modly, America’s acting secretary of the navy, offered a jumble of reasons. The captain had “undermined the chain of command” and “created...panic on the ship”.

Then, in an intemperate and rambling speech aboard the Roosevelt on April 6th, Mr Modly told its crew that Captain Crozier had either deliberately leaked the letter to the media, or was “too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer”. Mr Modly mockingly called the captain—who remains a serving officer—a “martyr” and accused him of “betrayal”. He complained that “it’s now become a big controversy in Washington, DC” and told sailors, who are supposed to remain non-partisan, that “the media has an agenda”.

Mr Modly’s remarks, which were piped over the ship’s intercom and, ironically, promptly leaked to the media, were met with incredulity on the ship. They came a day after Captain Crozier was reported to have tested positive for covid-19 and reinforced the sense that his offence was to have embarrassed the administration rather than violated protocol or undermined readiness. The decision “smacks of politics rather than military discipline,” says Jim Golby, an expert on civil-military relations and a serving army officer. “It’s notable that the military officers in the chain of command appear to have recommended against his removal.”

Mr Modly himself is only in charge of the navy because of the last mess. In November his predecessor, Richard Spencer, was fired after resisting what he called Donald Trump’s “shocking and unprecedented intervention” in the case of a Navy Seal who had been accused of war crimes. In a parting letter to the president, Mr Spencer said that this meddling had put at risk “good order and discipline”. War crimes, it turns out, can be smoothed over. Causing a stir in Washington is another matter.■



« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 08:14:04 pm by Manoli »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #102 on: April 06, 2020, 08:26:51 pm »

Does everyone wear masks? Maybe that's the difference between the east and west.

That's a good point and indeed, I think that it' one of the major contributors.

Especially in Feb and Mar during the polen season, many people wear masks.

Another factor being investigated is the possible immunitary boost resulting from erly BCG vaccination, in particular the type used in Japan (called Tokto 172). Large scales tests are being done in Holland and Australia as we speak to validate this theory.

Cheers,
Bernard

Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #103 on: April 06, 2020, 08:36:24 pm »

72 hours on from the USS Theodore Roosevelt / Captain Crozier affair, the 'who/how/why' is now abundantly evident.  Rather than the 'line' put forward in the closed thread, Captain rozier was dismissed at the behest of Trump and against the wishes of the Naval Command. Again.

QED.





That’s not what Modly says...

Acting Navy secretary Thomas Modly, in an extensive interview about the firing of the commander of a disease-threatened aircraft carrier, said he acted because he believed the captain was “panicking” under pressure — and wanted to make the move himself, before President Trump ordered the captain’s dismissal. “I didn’t want to get into a decision where the president would feel that he had to intervene because the Navy couldn’t be decisive,” Modly told me in a telephone call from Hawaii at about 1 a.m. Sunday, Washington time. He continued: “If I were president, and I saw a commanding officer of a ship exercising such poor judgment, I would be asking why the leadership of the Navy wasn’t taking action itself."

https://outline.com/RzHP6a
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #104 on: April 06, 2020, 09:09:04 pm »

72 hours on from the USS Theodore Roosevelt / Captain Crozier affair, the 'who/how/why' is now abundantly evident.  Rather than the 'line' put forward in the closed thread, Captain rozier was dismissed at the behest of Trump and against the wishes of the Naval Command. Again.

QED.





I have read conflicting news stories to yours, in that the decision was made without talking to Trump at all. 

Regardless though, it still does not change the fact that he broke OPSEC and the chain of command, and put his crew and the country at risk.

What if NK decided to launch a missile while the fleet was compromised?  Don't forget Japan depends on that missile defense system too.  Although it is doubtful NK would be stupid enough to launch a missile towards USA territory, but who knows really, what if they sent one towards Japan and we could not shoot it down due to him compromising the fleet? 

We would be having a completely different conversation.

The couple of friends of mine whom were enlisted men and Craig's friend all had the same opinion, that it was right to remove him.  He put the country and his crew at risk by blasting that email out to everyone he knew. 


PS, I asked one of my friends about his crew cheering him as he was being removed.  His take was that no matter what the reason, if your 6 month tour was cut short a couple of months and you were heading into dock, you would be cheering too.  So, to him, that was of no importance. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 09:12:33 pm by JoeKitchen »
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #105 on: April 06, 2020, 09:16:47 pm »

What if NK decided to launch a missile while the fleet was compromised?  Don't forget Japan depends on that missile defense system too.  Although it is doubtful NK would be stupid enough to launch a missile towards USA territory, but who knows really, what if they sent one towards Japan and we could not shoot it down due to him compromising the fleet? 

If NK launched a missile, USA would still have 90% of the arsenal. They could relatively quickly replace the entire ship crew with new sailors, and be fully operational.
By not replacing the sick sailors they wouldn't be of much use.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #106 on: April 06, 2020, 09:24:45 pm »

If NK launched a missile, USA would still have 90% of the arsenal. They could relatively quickly replace the entire ship crew with new sailors, and be fully operational.
By not replacing the sick sailors they wouldn't be of much use.

LOL, thank god you're not in charge of military strategy. 

It's great that you care enough about military lives to say, we can just replace them with more sailors if they get blown to bits by our screw up.  No point is crying over spilled milk, right.  Or oops, we missed that nuke launched out by Rocket Man; we were sick, sorry.  We'll do better next time though, trust us.   

That fleet acted as a deterrent, and regardless if they were compromised or not with an illness, so long as the enemy does not know it, they are just as effective as a deterrent.  Sure, if engaged, they may be less prepared to respond, but if the enemy does not know their status, they are still as effective to deter them from engaging.  That's the point. 

But if the enemy knows they are compromised, their power to deter them from attacking drops.  It is amazing you cant understand this simple concept of military strategy.  This was the mistake that captain made and he deserved to be removed for it. 

Plus, nearly all on board has a near 100% chance of survival due to their age and health.  (You're not excepted into the military old and/or unhealthy with pre-existing conditions.)  Also, there is a on ship hospital and triage.  He had no reason to do what he did. 

Last, and something that Modly pointed out, was that he panicked in his response.  If he panics under these conditions where very few of his crew was at danger of dying, you have to expect his response under fire would be worse and less collective.  That also disqualifies him for command. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 09:32:10 pm by JoeKitchen »
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #107 on: April 06, 2020, 09:34:14 pm »

Well, I'm glad I wasn't on that ship.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #108 on: April 06, 2020, 09:43:19 pm »

Well, I'm glad I wasn't on that ship.

We can agree on that. 

Although I would like to think I am patriotic enough to die for country, I would not want to be given the option. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #109 on: April 06, 2020, 09:48:54 pm »

So long as all of the Dems who downplayed this, like everyone single one except the governor of CT, are held just as accountable as the republicans.

Call me crazy, but I doubt this will happen though. 

Biden is already saying he would have acted sooner with the travel ban to/from China, even though he advised against it and called it racist at the time. The press is not even challenging him on it.
I said over and over here that the fake anti-Trump press is going to cover for Biden .  They're going to make him seem like Einstein and live as long as Methuselah.

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #110 on: April 06, 2020, 09:54:22 pm »

Ha Ha. I said that and my wife told me that was something a male would say.

Woman who have a choice won't get pregnant because they are worried about going to a doctor for checkups and pre-natal classes, going to the hospital eventually, and post natal care. So there will probably be a big drop in the birthrate at least in western countries.

The opposite happens in war.  Species tend to propagate when they're threatened.  Maybe people just want to get closer due to the fear factor. 

LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #111 on: April 06, 2020, 09:55:17 pm »

I said over and over here that the fake anti-Trump press is going to cover for Biden .  They're going to make him seem like Einstein and live as long as Methuselah.

In the last 3 weeks, Biden's popularity has been a real teeter-totter. Oscillating faster the Amazon stock price.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #112 on: April 06, 2020, 10:01:52 pm »

If you find this relevant why not build a comprehensive list of all the public statements of Trump and Biden about the corona with clear dates?

As far as I am concerned I think that the President in office is the commander in chief fully responsible for his country.

Cheers,
Bernard
As I said in the other thread, if this virus ends and the economy is mending, Trump will get all the credit.  Deservable. He's stood up there every day giving his news conferences, for better or worse.  He's in charge.  Everybody, I mean everybody, reports to him. He's running the show. There's no way he can deflect that, nor does he want to.  He's a stand up guy.  So however it turns out, the people will vote him in or out.  When people and especially Democrats said the election is all about Trump, they couldn't be more right.  The virus has definitely made that so and his daily conferences has assured it.  He's going to stand or fall in November based on what happens with Covid 19 and the economy. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2020, 10:06:55 pm »

Coronavirus: Japan to declare emergency as Tokyo cases soar
6 April 2020

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52184375
Japan has an aged population. So the death rate could be greater than most countries if this continues.  China has a rather youthful population, as large as it is.  Maybe that's the reason they were able to stop it.  It just seems so strange that they stopped it on a dime.  I have suspicions they have a secret antidote or something.  It just doesn't make sense.

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2020, 10:09:16 pm »


LOL, thank god you're not in charge of military strategy. 

It's great that you care enough about military lives to say, we can just replace them with more sailors if they get blown to bits by our screw up.  No point is crying over spilled milk, right.  Or oops, we missed that nuke launched out by Rocket Man; we were sick, sorry.  We'll do better next time though, trust us.   

That fleet acted as a deterrent, and regardless if they were compromised or not with an illness, so long as the enemy does not know it, they are just as effective as a deterrent.  Sure, if engaged, they may be less prepared to respond, but if the enemy does not know their status, they are still as effective to deter them from engaging.  That's the point. 

But if the enemy knows they are compromised, their power to deter them from attacking drops.  It is amazing you cant understand this simple concept of military strategy.  This was the mistake that captain made and he deserved to be removed for it. 

Plus, nearly all on board has a near 100% chance of survival due to their age and health.  (You're not excepted into the military old and/or unhealthy with pre-existing conditions.)  Also, there is a on ship hospital and triage.  He had no reason to do what he did. 

Last, and something that Modly pointed out, was that he panicked in his response.  If he panics under these conditions where very few of his crew was at danger of dying, you have to expect his response under fire would be worse and less collective.  That also disqualifies him for command.

Deterrent to what? That ship didn't deter anything. If almost any large military power wanted to sink it, they could. Take a look at what happened to aircraft carriers at the end of World War II -- the kamikazes were making them obsolete even then, eighty years ago. Aircraft carriers exist for one reason -- the Navy thinks it keeps them relevant, and besides, they're fun and they're cool and Tom Cruise makes movies about them, when the one thing that keeps the Navy relevant is nuclear submarines. You want to know the future of war, you can see it right now, in Syria. That's it. I think we have five carriers in the area, three in the gulf and two in the med, and they don't deter jack shit because the fighters there don't have jack shit. There's nothing worth the cost of a bomb. We dropped 26,000 bombs on ISIS with almost no effect; ground forces were needed to take them out. (And of the bombs dropped, most were dropped by the Air Force. Didn't really need the Navy at all; of course, we really didn't need the Air Force at all, either, because the bombing really didn't accomplish much other than wrecking some towns. About the only effective Air Force planes were the A-10 and the AC-130.)

It's become quite clear that Crozier was dismissed because Modly is a classic pencil-pushing suck-up who knew what Trump wanted, and carried out his wishes, thereby taking the blame because Trump is not somebody who lightly takes the blame for anything; or the responsibility for anything, as far as that goes. Corzier was desperately trying to get attention from somebody, and apparently the rear admiral down the hall from him was not paying attention, or not willing to draw attention to himself by backing up Crozier's requests. The whole episode is a disgrace, and a smear on the honor of the Navy.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #115 on: April 06, 2020, 10:20:43 pm »

Deterrent to what? That ship didn't deter anything. If almost any large military power wanted to sink it, they could. Take a look at what happened to aircraft carriers at the end of World War II -- the kamikazes were making them obsolete even then, eighty years ago. Aircraft carriers exist for one reason -- the Navy thinks it keeps them relevant, and besides, they're fun and they're cool and Tom Cruise makes movies about them, when the one thing that keeps the Navy relevant is nuclear submarines. You want to know the future of war, you can see it right now, in Syria. That's it. I think we have five carriers in the area, three in the gulf and two in the med, and they don't deter jack shit because the fighters there don't have jack shit. There's nothing worth the cost of a bomb. We dropped 26,000 bombs on ISIS with almost no effect; ground forces were needed to take them out. (And of the bombs dropped, most were dropped by the Air Force. Didn't really need the Navy at all; of course, we really didn't need the Air Force at all, either, because the bombing really didn't accomplish much other than wrecking some towns. About the only effective Air Force planes were the A-10 and the AC-130.)

It's become quite clear that Crozier was dismissed because Modly is a classic pencil-pushing suck-up who knew what Trump wanted, and carried out his wishes, thereby taking the blame because Trump is not somebody who lightly takes the blame for anything; or the responsibility for anything, as far as that goes. Corzier was desperately trying to get attention from somebody, and apparently the rear admiral down the hall from him was not paying attention, or not willing to draw attention to himself by backing up Crozier's requests. The whole episode is a disgrace, and a smear on the honor of the Navy.

You could make this same argument over General McChrystal being fired by Obama, and I would disagree in both case. 

It was justified for Modly to fire Crozier and it was justified for Obama to fire McChrystal. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2020, 10:40:18 pm »

72 hours on from the USS Theodore Roosevelt / Captain Crozier affair, the 'who/how/why' is now abundantly evident.  Rather than the 'line' put forward in the closed thread, Captain rozier was dismissed at the behest of Trump and against the wishes of the Naval Command. Again.

QED.





His care of his sailors is respected by everyone. However, it was reported that he sent this letter to 20 to 30 people. Who were these people and why did he send it to them and not his superiors in the chain of command?   The letter wasn't classified and sent plain text through unsecured communications channels.  It should have been classified SECRET at least, maybe TOP SECRET, and encrypted, since it revealed the unreadiness of a major war ship which in effect puts and entire carrier group out of action along with half a dozen other ships.

Trump said at his news conference today that the Captain had a bad day but otherwise has an exemplary history.  Trump said he didn't want to destroy any man's career especially because the captain had a very good one.  Trump went on the tell about the Captains career from when he started as a helicopter pilot, commenting how difficult that is because he knows about helicopters.  He went on tell about the whole career and how he advanced in it.  Obviously, Trump read the captain's report on his career and spent time going over it to know these kind of details extemporaneously.    This was not a snap judgement.  IO doubt if the anti-Trump press reported this.  You had to have watched the actual conference to see and know about it.   But Trump did repeat he thought the Captain violated protocol and didn;t act like a commander of a nuclear run war vessel should have acted.  In any case,  I think Trump is leaning to give this guy a pass like he did the Navy Seal.  Maybe this experience will toughen up the Captain and make him a better warrior.  Who knows?

James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #117 on: April 06, 2020, 10:53:10 pm »


LOL, thank god you're not in charge of military strategy. 

It's great that you care enough about military lives to say, we can just replace them with more sailors if they get blown to bits by our screw up.  No point is crying over spilled milk, right.  Or oops, we missed that nuke launched out by Rocket Man; we were sick, sorry.  We'll do better next time though, trust us.   

That fleet acted as a deterrent, and regardless if they were compromised or not with an illness, so long as the enemy does not know it, they are just as effective as a deterrent.  Sure, if engaged, they may be less prepared to respond, but if the enemy does not know their status, they are still as effective to deter them from engaging.  That's the point. 

But if the enemy knows they are compromised, their power to deter them from attacking drops.  It is amazing you cant understand this simple concept of military strategy.  This was the mistake that captain made and he deserved to be removed for it. 

Plus, nearly all on board has a near 100% chance of survival due to their age and health.  (You're not excepted into the military old and/or unhealthy with pre-existing conditions.)  Also, there is a on ship hospital and triage.  He had no reason to do what he did. 

Last, and something that Modly pointed out, was that he panicked in his response.  If he panics under these conditions where very few of his crew was at danger of dying, you have to expect his response under fire would be worse and less collective.  That also disqualifies him for command.

It’s either amusing or tragic - I’m not sure which - that you think this situation warrants removal from a carrier command because it makes us vulnerable but still think the chump in the White House isn’t problematic and deserves to retain his “command.”
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #118 on: April 06, 2020, 11:04:59 pm »

In the last 3 weeks, Biden's popularity has been a real teeter-totter. Oscillating faster the Amazon stock price.
I haven't seen him on the TV in a long time.  Maybe that's good for him.  Less chance for him showing he's out to lunch.  This way he can take more naps.  It really doesn't matter.  Trump will get re-elected or not based on what happens with the virus and the economy and how he handles it.  The rest is just conversation.   Russians, collusion, climate, NAFTA, tariffs, bimbos, crotches, revealing taxes, tax legislation, Obamacare, emoluments, obstruction of justice, Ukraine, impeachment.  None of these things matter any more. 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #119 on: April 06, 2020, 11:05:50 pm »

Japan has an aged population. So the death rate could be greater than most countries if this continues.

It could, but then why has it not been the case for weeks or months?

Again, Japan was one of the very first countries outside China to have cases and they have simply not materialized in any form of sanitary crisis till date, very very few absolute and relative number of casualties.

One thing is sure, it's not measures taken by Japan politicians that are responsible for the current miraculous status, besides school closure they have done less than any other developed country.

Regards,
Bernard
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