Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: HR-1 SuperChroma  (Read 7057 times)

inspiration.in.print

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
    • Inspiration in print Ltd.
HR-1 SuperChroma
« on: March 27, 2020, 07:10:12 pm »

For anybody reproducing artwork this must be the most interesting article for along time. Just leaving more me with more questions?

How we use it to create a camera profile?
A Spanish web sit that dose not support English?
How it work with X-Right Software?
The Super Chroma Prophoto.tif is the best calibration that I have seen but can it get even better?

Anticipating a follow up to this article
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 07:14:46 pm by inspiration.in.print »
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20721
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2020, 07:27:05 pm »

What raw converter are you using? If from Adobe (LR/ACR) this simply isn't going to fly; never use (nor need) ICC camera profiles.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2020, 03:32:57 pm »

What are the spectral characteristics of the patches in the chart? They aren't created with process colors, are they? What is the stability of the spectra?

Jim

hurodal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
    • My website
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2020, 06:38:33 pm »

For anybody reproducing artwork this must be the most interesting article for along time. Just leaving more me with more questions?

How we use it to create a camera profile?
A Spanish web sit that dose not support English?
How it work with X-Right Software?
The Super Chroma Prophoto.tif is the best calibration that I have seen but can it get even better?

Anticipating a follow up to this article

Thanks!
- The process is done by capturing the chart like if it were a reproduction and then create the profile using a special software, in a few words.
- X-Rite software cannot create profiles for it as by now.
- Yes, with BasICColor Input 6 you can obtain actually even beter profiles.
Regards,
Logged
Hugo Rodriguez

Coloratti member | PhaseOne certified professional | BenQ Ambassador

hurodal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
    • My website
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2020, 05:44:54 am »

What are the spectral characteristics of the patches in the chart? They aren't created with process colors, are they? What is the stability of the spectra?

Jim

The chart is printed with Epson Ultrachrome inks.
Regarding the spectral characteristics, though there are not present the exact same colors as -say- the ones in the Colorchecker in the Superchroma, there are some patches that are very similar both in color and spectral curve. I can send you graphs in you wish.
Regards,
Logged
Hugo Rodriguez

Coloratti member | PhaseOne certified professional | BenQ Ambassador

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2020, 03:14:17 pm »

The chart is printed with Epson Ultrachrome inks.
Regarding the spectral characteristics, though there are not present the exact same colors as -say- the ones in the Colorchecker in the Superchroma, there are some patches that are very similar both in color and spectral curve. I can send you graphs in you wish.
Regards,

So they are process colors. That's an issue, since the basis functions for all the spectra will be derived from the number of inks used in the printer.

Jim

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20721
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2020, 03:19:23 pm »

So they are process colors. That's an issue, since the basis functions for all the spectra will be derived from the number of inks used in the printer.

Jim
Indeed and more here:
Quote
https://luminous-landscape.com/hr-1-superchroma/
1. To offer the largest gamut available today, thanks to giclée printing with 12 pigmented inks.
As soon as I got to giclée, I was done.  ;)
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2020, 06:46:12 pm »

Indeed and more here:As soon as I got to giclée, I was done.  ;)

Yup. French slang for ejaculation, right?

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20721
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2020, 06:52:37 pm »

Yup. French slang for ejaculation, right?

Oui 😱💦
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

hurodal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
    • My website
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2020, 11:53:51 am »

Indeed and more here:As soon as I got to giclée, I was done.  ;)

FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gicl%C3%A9e
Logged
Hugo Rodriguez

Coloratti member | PhaseOne certified professional | BenQ Ambassador

hurodal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
    • My website
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2020, 11:55:06 am »

So they are process colors. That's an issue, since the basis functions for all the spectra will be derived from the number of inks used in the printer.

Well, my tests and measurements (and clients) don't prove that's an issue as you can see in the article.
Regards,
Logged
Hugo Rodriguez

Coloratti member | PhaseOne certified professional | BenQ Ambassador

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2020, 12:49:29 pm »

Well, my tests and measurements (and clients) don't prove that's an issue as you can see in the article.
Regards,

If it makes you happy, that's great. And it's certainly the easy way to go. But it's an invitation to metametric color errors (both lighting and subject induced), unless you're mostly taking pictures of printer output.

Jim

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20721
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2020, 01:00:20 pm »

FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gicl%C3%A9e
"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
-Bertrand Russell
This a massively made up BS term from long ago that the fellows who actually came up with the use for fine art printing has always dismissed (Nash and Holbert).

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/giclée

NOTE: According to paper and online sources, the French word giclée was first applied to ink-jet prints in 1991 by Jack Duganne, a printmaker working for Nash Editions in Manhattan Beach, California. A relatively early account of the origin can be found in “Paper Trail,” the editorial column of On Paper: The Journal of Prints, Drawing and Photography, vol. 1, no. 5 (May-June, 1997), p. 5: “When, in the mid-1980’s [recte, 1990-91], Nash Editions became the first press extensively involved in computer printmaking (with an Iris printer, in this case), it dubbed the works digital ink jet prints. This reflected, in a matter-of-fact manner, the process that takes an image scanned or generated on a computer, and then sends that image to be printed on a machine that spits out ink in minuscule jets … . ‘We had a man named Jack Duganne working with us at the time, who recognized there was no way to talk about this,’ says Nash Editions’s Mac Holbert. ‘He felt that if we just called it “digital ink jet print,” it would have absolutely no impact on the art world. So he went home to his French dictionary and found the word “gicler,” which means “to spray” or “to jet.”’ (Later, the printers discovered that the term in French was slang for ‘to ejaculate,’ which pleased them even more.) The term ‘giclée’ is still occasionally used. But even Nash Editions abandoned it as a ‘euphemism,’ and the more cumbersome ‘digital ink jet print’ prevails.”
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20721
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2020, 01:03:30 pm »

If it makes you happy, that's great.
Or as the late, great expert on color (Bruce Fraser) would say:
"If you're happy with what you have, be happy that you're happy with what you have!"

Doesn't change the colorimetric facts you've pointed out:
Quote
an invitation to metametric color errors (both lighting and subject induced), unless you're mostly taking pictures of printer output.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

hurodal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
    • My website
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2020, 05:11:25 pm »

If it makes you happy, that's great. And it's certainly the easy way to go. But it's an invitation to metametric color errors (both lighting and subject induced), unless you're mostly taking pictures of printer output.
Jim

Jim, it's not a question that I'm happy or not. If you watch the results with the colorchecker you can see both results, with it's own (colorchecker) profile and the SuperChroma profile, and judge yourself. It's just data.
Apart from that, as I explained and stated several times: this chart is meant to be used in professional environments where low quality and/or CRI lights will be used, so there's very few metameric issue to be seen.
I don't believe any serious professional photographer or museum will use cheap chinese lights for their work. And with high quality lights (Profoto, Broncolor...) the spectral curve is really smooth.
Regards,
Logged
Hugo Rodriguez

Coloratti member | PhaseOne certified professional | BenQ Ambassador

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2020, 05:33:43 pm »

Apart from that, as I explained and stated several times: this chart is meant to be used in professional environments where low quality and/or CRI lights will be used, so there's very few metameric issue to be seen.

First off, isn't that bas-ackwards? In professional environments, it is more likely that the lights will be of high quality, not less likely.

And second, metameric issues are not confined to situation where the spectra of the illuminant is smooth. Look at what happens to a print when illuminated by various black-body illuminants.

And third, it's possible to have high-CRI lights that are peaky.

Jim

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20721
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2020, 06:05:49 pm »

First off, isn't that bas-ackwards? In professional environments, it is more likely that the lights will be of high quality, not less likely.

And second, metameric issues are not confined to situation where the spectra of the illuminant is smooth. Look at what happens to a print when illuminated by various black-body illuminants.

And third, it's possible to have high-CRI lights that are peaky.

Jim
And that's just data  :D
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

hurodal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 54
    • My website
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2020, 02:28:30 pm »

First off, isn't that bas-ackwards? In professional environments, it is more likely that the lights will be of high quality, not less likely.

And second, metameric issues are not confined to situation where the spectra of the illuminant is smooth. Look at what happens to a print when illuminated by various black-body illuminants.

And third, it's possible to have high-CRI lights that are peaky.

Jim

Sorry, a mispelling. I meant high quality lights.
Logged
Hugo Rodriguez

Coloratti member | PhaseOne certified professional | BenQ Ambassador

sea-speak

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2020, 08:58:11 pm »

The image that comes to my mind is that of two seagulls who just flew over a guy and crapped on his head. Then flew off to eat sardines on a pylon.

So, Kasson et al, if you have something constructive to say - like what kind of ink you require in your aviary, or which color reference is the best on the market - please do so.

Hugo, what is your preferred hardware & software workflow to utilize your card?

thanks --

Brandt
Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: HR-1 SuperChroma
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2020, 07:41:55 pm »

The image that comes to my mind is that of two seagulls who just flew over a guy and crapped on his head. Then flew off to eat sardines on a pylon.

So, Kasson et al, if you have something constructive to say - like what kind of ink you require in your aviary, or which color reference is the best on the market - please do so.


It sounds like neither you nor the OP are appreciating the thrust of my argument as to why you need more independent spectra in your test target, not more colors that are the result of a narrow set of basis functions.

I've prepared a detailed explanation:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/two-digital-camera-color-fallacies/

Jim
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up