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Author Topic: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G  (Read 21349 times)

chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #80 on: March 07, 2020, 12:59:28 pm »

Couldn’t agree less Chez. Event photography and weddings are a tiny part of professional photography and currently not a very lucrative part. I have one F2.8 zoom and it’s my least used men’s commercially. I have done one shoot with it this year. The 70-200 Sony F4 is my most used lens akin with the 90mm macro. Not everyone is trying to blur out backgrounds.

It seems at the moment that most photographers are either trying to totally blur out backgrounds or are trying for infinite focus. Well every aperture is there to be used and all have a purpose.  Sometimes you want to blur totally, sometimes a little, sometimes just a touch and sometimes not at all.

What I can tell you is if you want to totally blur a background then 2,8 doesn’t do it. You will need a very fast prime. To me that means the fast 2,8 zooms fall into an uncomfortable middle ground. Not as good or as fast as a prime. Not as convenient or as light as a F4 zoom.

So you are trying to tell me more professional photographers use f4 zooms than 2.8 zooms. Really? Have any proof of this?

As far as total blur...that's a amateur's style. Most portraits / people shots are in the f2.8 range which provides enough blur in the background to give you focus on the people...yet does not totally obscure the background and take all the environment / context out.

I know quite a few professional photographers and exactly zero use an f4 zoom for their work.
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KLaban

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2020, 01:00:36 pm »

The thought of being influenced in any way by the equipment choices of wedding or event photographers or by the classification of equipment by manufacturers really doesn't get my rocks off.

chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2020, 01:03:26 pm »

The thought of being influenced in any way by the equipment choices of wedding or event photographers or by the classification of equipment by manufacturers really doesn't get my rocks off.

Me neither...but just laying out the facts. I've shot enough events and weddings to know an f4 zoom will not cut the cake, that's from experience. I have an f4 zoom ( 70-200 f4 ) that I use when out taking landscapes, but for events when things get dim...not a chance.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 01:06:49 pm by chez »
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chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2020, 01:05:47 pm »

Some examples of 2.8 images and the blur that is just enough to give focus to the subject, yet still keep the image environment visible.

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KLaban

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2020, 01:16:07 pm »

The thought of being influenced by forum contributors facts just doesn't get my rocks off.

chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2020, 01:19:53 pm »

The thought of being influenced by forum contributors facts just doesn't get my rocks off.

The fact that you have to tell the world what does not "get your rocks off"...is a little concerning. Do you also go out and tell the world that you  don't like Budweiser beer, or perhaps don't like sauerkraut?
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2020, 02:42:24 pm »

There is a reason why the holy trinity of zooms ( 16-35, 24-70 and 70-200 ) at f2.8 are the staple of many professional photographers...they deliver. I've assisted with numerous weddings and have photographed many concerts and the pros here all had 2.8 zooms.

You mean basically one type of professional photographer - those who shoot events, weddings or news, in a photojournalistic style. Of course you see a lot of them - they're the most visible kind of photographer, since you come across them any time you go to a wedding, concert, corporate function or other event, and they aren't hidden away in a photographer's box somewhere.

Far less visible are the studio photographers, property photographers, travel photographers/bloggers and others, who you don't see because they're either hidden away in studios somewhere, operating away from crowds or on the road. None of them are using f/2.8 zooms. The Canon 24-105/4 happens to be a favourite of many a flash-wielding studio portrait photographer, since it's cheap and does the job. And sports/wildlife photographers, of course, make little use of these zooms - they're just too short.

The f/2.8 zooms need to be among the first lenses available, largely due to 'street cred' arising from their visibility, as you have more-or-less inadvertently demonstrated. But, unless you're shooting in a photojournalistic style - news, events or weddings - they're hardly the most useful lenses. They just happen to be commonly bought by non-event photographers, due to lack of better high-end options. If the f/2.8 zooms are good, but the f/4 versions are consumer-grade garbage, you're going to get the f/2.8 ones even if you never shoot them wider than f/5.6, because they're the only sharp zoom option available.

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F4 zooms are really the ones in no man lands. They are not light, they are not fast enough for many situations, they don't provide the isolation abilities when required, and their image quality is not good enough. Bottom line the f4 speed is really a consumer level lens where the lighter weight and much cheaper cost is what draws the consumer to f4 rather than f2.8 zooms. I use my f4 zooms for landscapes stopped down to f8 or f11...where they are fine.

Quit harping on about the f/4 zooms' 'poor image quality' - it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The image quality of most f/4 zooms is poor because they were designed to be cheap, not good. Doesn't mean that f/4 zooms have poor image quality as an inherent quality, as if they could be no different.

'Lightweight' and 'cheap' aren't the same thing. Leica's Summicrons are their lightest and smallest lenses, but also their sharpest. I - and probably most other people- prefer lightweight gear over heavyweight gear when they do the job equally well. So does anyone else who has had to lug 20kg of cameras on a multi-week hike, or carry them on a plane. I'm prepared to carry weight where the added weight provides some benefit, but am loathe to carry it when it doesn't do anything useful for me. Hence things like grips and aluminium tripods are out. f/2.8 zooms I tolerate because the . Release some f/4 zooms that are sharper than the f/2.8s and you'd likely find that sales of the f/2.8s drop by half, even if you price them the same. Many people - pros and amateurs alike - just don't need f/2.8 in a zoom.

If I want subject isolation, I usually want as much as I can get, but don't need it at every focal length from 14mm to 200mm. Usually, it's for some sort of portrait. Add in an 85/1.x prime and you've got that covered. If shooting action, maybe replace the 70-200/4 with a 70-200/2.8, but you don't also need your UWA and standard lenses to be wide aperture - you're not going to get much subject isolation out of them anyway. And I'd rather have them in a lighter, sharper f/4 version than a big, heavy f/2.8 which isn't as sharp because of all the extra compromises needed to build a faster lens.

No, most of the current f/4 zooms out there aren't as sharp as they could be at f/5.6-f/11. Almost universally, they lag behind primes. Usually, they also lag behind the f/2.8 zooms. This is because they're made to be budget lenses, not designed to be as good as they can possibly be.

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If a manufacturer would come out with a super duper image quality f4 lens...it will be priced out of the consumer market and would fail as f4 just does not cut the cake for professional use.

I think manufactures have it right...f4 zooms are targeted at the consumer market and 2.8 zooms at the professional market. Best not to blend these two as that blend will not meet either consumer or professional markets.

The professional market is dead - it's a very small part of Canon/Nikon/Sony's sales. It's main value is in brand perception and marketing rather than in terms of actual sales volume. Consumers buy a brand because they see professionals using them. This is where the profit is made, and the real value of professional sales - not the comparatively few bodies/lenses actually bought by professionals, particularly since pros tend to specialise in a single type of photography, and, hence, need fewer lenses than enthusiasts shooting a bit of everything.

Besides, high-end amateurs have a lot more money to spend on gear than pros. Pros need income to exceed expenditure - and by a significant amount. Amateurs will spend as much as they can afford, and as much as they need, to get the best gear for what they shoot. Those amateurs in the business of buying full-frame cameras and multiple lenses are going to be making a lot more money than most pro photographers, and there are a lot more of them.

It's really the mid-priced consumer-grade f/4 zooms that don't have a place. Leaving aside those who are satisfied with an iPhone, the average consumer will buy a body and kit lens and be done with it, as an ultra-compact kit for travel or family photos that beats a camera phone. Maybe add a cheap telephoto or UWA if they're going on a particular holiday. They're going to baulk at buying a mid-grade lens that costs more than what their entry-level camera body is worth. Event/wedding pros will stick to their f/2.8 zooms. Other pros will use whatever gear is best suited to the job, which could be almost anything. Photo enthusiasts/high-end amateurs will spend big on gear and buy the best thing they can get for their style of photography. This doesn't include mid-grade, budget-oriented f/4 zooms. High-end f/4 zooms are another matter entirely. This is a group that tends to travel a lot and bring gear along (hence the premium on light weight and the popularity of carbon fibre tripods), with a subject choice that often includes landscapes, city scenes and others that don't require a wide aperture (a single fast prime can cover portraits, and will weigh less and do a better job than any f/2.8 zoom).
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chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2020, 03:04:49 pm »

You mean basically one type of professional photographer - those who shoot events, weddings or news, in a photojournalistic style. Of course you see a lot of them - they're the most visible kind of photographer, since you come across them any time you go to a wedding, concert, corporate function or other event, and they aren't hidden away in a photographer's box somewhere.

Far less visible are the studio photographers, property photographers, travel photographers/bloggers and others, who you don't see because they're either hidden away in studios somewhere, operating away from crowds or on the road. None of them are using f/2.8 zooms. The Canon 24-105/4 happens to be a favourite of many a flash-wielding studio portrait photographer, since it's cheap and does the job. And sports/wildlife photographers, of course, make little use of these zooms - they're just too short.

The f/2.8 zooms need to be among the first lenses available, largely due to 'street cred' arising from their visibility, as you have more-or-less inadvertently demonstrated. But, unless you're shooting in a photojournalistic style - news, events or weddings - they're hardly the most useful lenses. They just happen to be commonly bought by non-event photographers, due to lack of better high-end options. If the f/2.8 zooms are good, but the f/4 versions are consumer-grade garbage, you're going to get the f/2.8 ones even if you never shoot them wider than f/5.6, because they're the only sharp zoom option available.

Quit harping on about the f/4 zooms' 'poor image quality' - it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The image quality of most f/4 zooms is poor because they were designed to be cheap, not good. Doesn't mean that f/4 zooms have poor image quality as an inherent quality, as if they could be no different.

'Lightweight' and 'cheap' aren't the same thing. Leica's Summicrons are their lightest and smallest lenses, but also their sharpest. I - and probably most other people- prefer lightweight gear over heavyweight gear when they do the job equally well. So does anyone else who has had to lug 20kg of cameras on a multi-week hike, or carry them on a plane. I'm prepared to carry weight where the added weight provides some benefit, but am loathe to carry it when it doesn't do anything useful for me. Hence things like grips and aluminium tripods are out. f/2.8 zooms I tolerate because the . Release some f/4 zooms that are sharper than the f/2.8s and you'd likely find that sales of the f/2.8s drop by half, even if you price them the same. Many people - pros and amateurs alike - just don't need f/2.8 in a zoom.

If I want subject isolation, I usually want as much as I can get, but don't need it at every focal length from 14mm to 200mm. Usually, it's for some sort of portrait. Add in an 85/1.x prime and you've got that covered. If shooting action, maybe replace the 70-200/4 with a 70-200/2.8, but you don't also need your UWA and standard lenses to be wide aperture - you're not going to get much subject isolation out of them anyway. And I'd rather have them in a lighter, sharper f/4 version than a big, heavy f/2.8 which isn't as sharp because of all the extra compromises needed to build a faster lens.

No, most of the current f/4 zooms out there aren't as sharp as they could be at f/5.6-f/11. Almost universally, they lag behind primes. Usually, they also lag behind the f/2.8 zooms. This is because they're made to be budget lenses, not designed to be as good as they can possibly be.

The professional market is dead - it's a very small part of Canon/Nikon/Sony's sales. It's main value is in brand perception and marketing rather than in terms of actual sales volume. Consumers buy a brand because they see professionals using them. This is where the profit is made, and the real value of professional sales - not the comparatively few bodies/lenses actually bought by professionals, particularly since pros tend to specialise in a single type of photography, and, hence, need fewer lenses than enthusiasts shooting a bit of everything.

Besides, high-end amateurs have a lot more money to spend on gear than pros. Pros need income to exceed expenditure - and by a significant amount. Amateurs will spend as much as they can afford, and as much as they need, to get the best gear for what they shoot. Those amateurs in the business of buying full-frame cameras and multiple lenses are going to be making a lot more money than most pro photographers, and there are a lot more of them.

It's really the mid-priced consumer-grade f/4 zooms that don't have a place. Leaving aside those who are satisfied with an iPhone, the average consumer will buy a body and kit lens and be done with it, as an ultra-compact kit for travel or family photos that beats a camera phone. Maybe add a cheap telephoto or UWA if they're going on a particular holiday. They're going to baulk at buying a mid-grade lens that costs more than what their entry-level camera body is worth. Event/wedding pros will stick to their f/2.8 zooms. Other pros will use whatever gear is best suited to the job, which could be almost anything. Photo enthusiasts/high-end amateurs will spend big on gear and buy the best thing they can get for their style of photography. This doesn't include mid-grade, budget-oriented f/4 zooms. High-end f/4 zooms are another matter entirely. This is a group that tends to travel a lot and bring gear along (hence the premium on light weight and the popularity of carbon fibre tripods), with a subject choice that often includes landscapes, city scenes and others that don't require a wide aperture (a single fast prime can cover portraits, and will weigh less and do a better job than any f/2.8 zoom).

So are you saying all the manufactures have it wrong...that f4 zooms are aimed at the consumer market and f2.8 zooms at the professional market? You do know the f4 zooms far outsell the f2.8 zooms right...so I'm thinking the huge consumer market is buying up the f4 zooms just the way they sit. Do you really think they would buy a slightly better lens for say 1.5x the price of the existing f4 zooms? I know that answer and it is no way.

I think you just have to be happy with either using a consumer grade f4 zoom ( I do for landscape at times and it's great at f8 ) or use faster primes ( I do when traveling ) or just bite the bullet and get yourself a 2.8 zoom where not only do you get a faster lens...you get better image quality.

I also think you have it wrong when you think these other professional photography niches use f4 zooms extensively. Architecture use TSE lenses in order to handle distortion. Studio photographers use high quality primes as their goal is utmost quality in the images. Portrait photographers either use 2.8 zooms or primes. It's really hard to say any photography profession utilizes predominate f4 zooms as their staple.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2020, 04:49:31 pm »

Shadowblade,

I totally agree that very high quality f4 zooms are very valuable and that’s exactly what Nikon has provided us with with the 14-30mm f4 and 24-70mm f4.

They couldn’t be farther from consumer crap.

You’d know if you attempted to look at them without your brand filtering glasses.

These 2 lenses strike a truly amazing balance btwn very high quality, very compact size, convenience of range,...

You would be singing their praise like crazy if they had a Sony logo on them.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 04:53:08 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2020, 04:52:34 pm »

Shadowblade,

I totally agree that very high quality f4 zooms are very valuable and that’s exactly what Nikon has provided us with with the 14-30mm f4 and 24-70mm f4.

They couldn’t be farther from consumer crap.

You’d know if you attempted to look at them without your brand filtering glasses.

Cheers,
Bernard

Haven't used the 14-30...but did read reviews about it and no it's not crap...but it's not superb either...especially at the wide end. Your view of high quality is very subjective...I trust Thom's opinions on things as he shoot pretty straight.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2020, 04:57:04 pm »

Haven't used the 14-30...but did read reviews about it and no it's not crap...but it's not superb either...especially at the wide end. Your view of high quality is very subjective...I trust Thom's opinions on things as he shoot pretty straight.

Thom is by no means negative about the 14-30.

It’s better at 14mm than the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 that, if you recall, was used by many Canon shooters because it was better than ultra wide primes... it stayed without response from competitors for 8 years which is just unheard of in the pro market. And, 14mm was the best focal length of the 14-24mm f2.8...

So, although 14mm is probably it’s weakest focal length, the 14-30 is nowhere poor at 14mm.

You know, companies mostly manage to achieve what they try to achieve. And Nikon has clearly attempted to deliver to the market exactly what you are asking for and that no other brand has ever attempted to achieve: top of the range f4 zooms with a moderate range of focal lengths. And they have, unsurprisingly, reached their objective. Why do I know Nikon was trying to achieve this? Because they have called their L glass “S” and those 2 lenses were among the first announced with the S logo.

Sony decided that they would focus their GM series or bright aperture zooms and primes, and they have succeeded also in what they were trying to achieve. But those are not the f4 zooms you are interested in. Those are just differences of strategies. Some match more of less your priorities as a photographer.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 05:21:21 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2020, 07:18:06 pm »

Thom is by no means negative about the 14-30.

It’s better at 14mm than the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 that, if you recall, was used by many Canon shooters because it was better than ultra wide primes... it stayed without response from competitors for 8 years which is just unheard of in the pro market. And, 14mm was the best focal length of the 14-24mm f2.8...

So, although 14mm is probably it’s weakest focal length, the 14-30 is nowhere poor at 14mm.

You know, companies mostly manage to achieve what they try to achieve. And Nikon has clearly attempted to deliver to the market exactly what you are asking for and that no other brand has ever attempted to achieve: top of the range f4 zooms with a moderate range of focal lengths. And they have, unsurprisingly, reached their objective. Why do I know Nikon was trying to achieve this? Because they have called their L glass “S” and those 2 lenses were among the first announced with the S logo.

Sony decided that they would focus their GM series or bright aperture zooms and primes, and they have succeeded also in what they were trying to achieve. But those are not the f4 zooms you are interested in. Those are just differences of strategies. Some match more of less your priorities as a photographer.

Yes, it's an OK lens given its an f4 zoom...but has its warts. Here's Thom's summary.

"I originally recommended the 16-35mm f/4G, but the more I used it the more I decided that it didn't deserve that much praise. The 16-35mm f/4 is a useful lens for many,  but not one that I could tell everyone to jump on board with. Since I'm getting the exact same feeling with the 14-30mm f/4 S, I'm not going to give it a Recommended rating."

Now I'm hearing great things about the Sigma 14-24 2.8 lens...many are selling their primes and replacing them with the zoom. Of course it's bigger and heavier, but it goes down to f2.8 and if image quality is your prime concern...it seems to excel at that.

Personally for the extreme wide angles I refer using a prime at around 15mm. I don't need anything wider. I'm eyeing the Tamron 17-35 2.8 lend which is compact / light yet is 2.8 and seems to deliver great image quality. Will rent it out and see for myself.

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shadowblade

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2020, 08:47:19 pm »

So are you saying all the manufactures have it wrong...that f4 zooms are aimed at the consumer market and f2.8 zooms at the professional market? You do know the f4 zooms far outsell the f2.8 zooms right...so I'm thinking the huge consumer market is buying up the f4 zooms just the way they sit. Do you really think they would buy a slightly better lens for say 1.5x the price of the existing f4 zooms? I know that answer and it is no way.

Take away the 24-105/4 and 24-70/4 kit lenses and it looks a lot more even.

And, yes, they have it wrong. It was right for 1990, when everyone had cameras, and has held on as a legacy. For 2020, it's completely wrong. Big Japanese companies are often slow to change direction.

The camera market is changing. The pro market is as small as it's ever been, while the consumer market is drying up, due to a combination of phone cameras, stagnant incomes, a preference for waterproof/shockproof 'action' cameras and technology reaching the point of 'good enough' for many people. The money isn't in selling cheap lenses to the masses, but in selling better and more task-appropriate lenses to high-end enthusiasts. Less volume, but more profit per unit sold.

The low end will stay (as kit lenses and for casual users who just want a camera and basic lens that covers the focal length needed) but the mid grade is dead. It's either low-end or high-end, with little role for anything in the middle. Photo enthusiasts will go for the high-end gear - they're buying the f/2.8 zooms now, since that's what's available, but would equally go for high-quality f/4 zooms which fit better with what they are doing. Beginners/mum-and-dad photographers will go for the kit lenses, not wanting to spend any more. But no-one gets excited about the release of a new, mid-grade 24-70/4 or 70-200/4 - too expensive for non-enthusiasts, while not capable enough for enthusiasts if it doesn't beat the optical performance of he f/2.8 zooms.

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I think you just have to be happy with either using a consumer grade f4 zoom ( I do for landscape at times and it's great at f8 ) or use faster primes ( I do when traveling ) or just bite the bullet and get yourself a 2.8 zoom where not only do you get a faster lens...you get better image quality.

The only reason you get better image quality with f/2.8 zooms is because most f/4 zooms are built to be cheap, not good.

There's nothing inherent about f/4 zooms that means they have to be poorer than f/2.8 zooms. Design them with the same care and price point in mind and the f/4 versions will be sharper. Smaller aperture means fewer compromises needed to achieve the aperture, which generally means sharper. Ito also means smaller elements, which are easier to manufacture precisely and without flaws, for better quality and less copy-to-copy variation.

I used to carry a f/2.8 zoom trinity. Most of it was dead weight . The 70-200 would occasionally be used for a portrait, but, the rest of the time, it was like the equivalent of putting rocks in your pack - good for exercise, but adding no useful capability. Had the f/4 zooms been equally good, I'd have used them instead, and thrown in a f/1.x prime for portraits (or just had my macro lens do double duty).

I currently use a 24-70/2.8. It's sharp (after going through several copies), but not prime sharp. If it had a smaller aperture and zoom range, it could have been made even sharper, equalling primes in the f/5.6-f/11 range.

Due to the nature of the Sony lens lineup, I've been able to get away without other f/2.8 zooms adding dead weight. The 100-400 is sharper than the 70-200/2.8 (at landscape/wildlife distances - I've seen/heard that the 70-200 GM is super sharp at portrait distances, but loses out at infinity, a bit like the 90mm macro) so suits me just fine - one lens covers all my (non-wildlife) telephoto needs. Add in a prime for subject isolation when needed, or just use the macro for that.

I'm also using a 12-24/4. It's in the odd position of being as sharp as anything else in that focal length range, and that includes the Voigtlander primes - anything sharper doesn't reach 12mm. But I have no doubt it could be even sharper, particularly in the corners, if it didn't have so ambitious a focal length range - 2x zoom is a lot at UWA focal lengths. This is a case of using a consumer-grade lens because there's actually no better lens out there at the moment. I'll be keeping a close eye on the 12-24/2.8 GM when it comes out, to see if it adds image quality, or just weight and a wider aperture, but have no doubt that, had they gone for a smaller aperture and zoom range, with the same price target, they could make it even sharper.

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I also think you have it wrong when you think these other professional photography niches use f4 zooms extensively. Architecture use TSE lenses in order to handle distortion. Studio photographers use high quality primes as their goal is utmost quality in the images. Portrait photographers either use 2.8 zooms or primes. It's really hard to say any photography profession utilizes predominate f4 zooms as their staple.

I never said that other pros use f/4 zooms. Most don't, because the ones available are mostly average at best. But 'don't' is different from 'won't'. They 'don't' use f/4 zooms because current f/4 zooms are no good. That doesn't mean they 'won't', were good f/4 zooms available.

It's a bit like how pro photographers (and high-end amateurs) didn't used to shoot Sigma or Tamron lenses (let alone other brands like Samyang). Their products were shoddy in some way (IQ or AF), so they didn't use them. The moment they lifted their game, they suddenly got a second look, and, now, they're rather popular.

Again, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Make the f/2.8 zooms good and the f/4 zooms cheap, but shoddy, and anyone who cares about the quality of their work has to get the f/2.8 version, even if they never use it wide-open. That's why it looks like so many pros use the f/2.8 versions - not because they're using it at f/2.8 (obviously event/wedding/news photographers are) but because there's no decent alternative.

Although you'd be surprised at what a lot of studio portrait photographers use. Most aren't shooting Rodenstock lenses on Phase One backs - that's commercial photographers shooting advertising campaigns, who often don't buy/own their own gear anyway. Instead, all their money's in the lighting equipment, since that's what most influences their image quality. Lenses and bodies are often the cheapest thing that will do the job - and that can mean really cheap. Bodies may be several generations old - they're shooting nonmoving subjects stopped down, with a deep DOF, so AF isn't an issue, and they're shooting at base ISO, so light sensitivity isn't an issue either. Lenses can be really cheap too. Corner sharpness doesn't matter when you're shooting portraits, and corners will usually be out of focus anyway. Wide aperture isn't needed when you're shooting stopped down and using flash. Zoom is great because you don't need to keep changing lenses during a shoot. Hence the popularity of the Canon 24-105/4 kit lens (now that the supply of the old 28-105s has dried up). Better to spend your gear budget on a Broncolor Para, which actually does affect your image quality (or, if you already own a parabolic reflector, saves you time by being much faster to set up and take down), faster IT systems to speed up your workflow or extra backdrops and props to add to your shots. Or, even better, realise that you don't actually need to spend that money to do the job and spend it on beer instead - you can do a lot with a few umbrellas and light stands, and they're much easier to bring to location shoots than large softboxes, and far quicker to set up or take down.

You're describing the situation as it is - f/2.8 zooms are good, f/4 zooms are shonky, so anyone who cares about output quality uses the f/2.8 version, whether they need f/2.8 or not. I, and others, are describing it as it could be - make f/2.8 and f/4 zooms equally good (at the same price point, this would mean f/4 zooms being sharper and better-corrected than f/2.8 versions) and you'd get a spread, with those needing the speed going for f/2.8, while those travelling light or after the sharpest option going for the f/4.

Besides, what pros (at least the most visible ones) use doesn't matter. Amateurs have the money and are buying most of the gear. Pros will get the cheapest thing that does the job, to maximise profit, and will have a smaller collection of lenses, since they're mostly only shooting one thing. f/2.8 are a photojournalist's tool - and probably the best thing for photojournalism and weddings. For anything else, they're an ill fit, often forced into the role due to lack of high-quality alternatives.
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chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2020, 09:01:17 pm »

Sorry shadowblade, don't have the time nor the desire to read such a long verbose post. Hope you get what you want...but I think you are in the minority here. Most people that buy f4 zooms are happy with them and building better quality and more expensive f4 zooms would not bring in an extra nickel for the lens manufactures.

People that want better image quality move to 2.8 zooms or primes, leaving the f4 zooms as consumer level.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2020, 09:08:16 pm »

Shadowblade,

I totally agree that very high quality f4 zooms are very valuable and that’s exactly what Nikon has provided us with with the 14-30mm f4 and 24-70mm f4.

They couldn’t be farther from consumer crap.

You’d know if you attempted to look at them without your brand filtering glasses.

These 2 lenses strike a truly amazing balance btwn very high quality, very compact size, convenience of range,...

You would be singing their praise like crazy if they had a Sony logo on them.

Cheers,
Bernard

That's the problem. They're pretty average lenses ('average' in the technical sense, not the vernacular sense as a euphemism for 'poor'). Sure, they're lightweight and fairly cheap - if that's what you need, then they're great. But, for those who are after performance first, with weight and price being secondary concerns, they offer very little.

They're sharp, but still beaten at the same aperture by their f/2.8 counterparts, not to mention primes.

By definition, buyers of f/4 zooms don't need wide apertures - at least not in that focal length range. But they do need optical performance. Often, these will be travelling photographers, for whom weight matters. They will shoot a lot of landscapes, cityscapes and similar subjects, where everything is in focus and needs to be sharp. They will often also have one or two primes for their wide aperture needs, since these primes will blow any f/2.8 zoom out of the water when it comes to that. Many will be shooting Z7s or A7r3/4s, so you can't count on sensor resolution being the limiting factor (especially in the corners).

When push comes to shove, many of these people will opt for the f/2.8 zooms due to their marginally better optical quality, all the while grumbling about weight.

For an f/4 zoom to be attractive to those whose priority remains optical quality, it needs to at least beat the corresponding f/2.8 zooms, if not some of the primes. If it does not, it remains 'consumer crap', attractive mostly to those whose priority is weight, size +/- price, above all else - or, worse, stuck in the mid-tier doldrums, attractive to no-one. The 14-30 is decent, but doesn't quite match the various 14-24 options out there (not to mention the 24-xx lenses at the longer end of the range). Good in an absolute sense, but those who prioritise image quality are still going to choose the optically better lens.

The only reason the Sony 12-24/4 gets a pass at the moment is because there is no other lens out there, of any grade, that matches it at those focal lengths. I wouldn't give the Sony 16-35/4 or 24-105/4 the same pass (despite the Sony 24-105 being probably the best 24-105/4 out there at the moment).

Keep the 14-30 where it is - it clearly does a great job as an ultralight option. But make a new 12-21/4, 14-21/4 or 14-24/4, and make sure it beats the various 14-24/2.8 lenses at the same aperture, and gives the f/1.8 primes a good run for their money. That would be a really compelling lens.
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chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2020, 09:17:42 pm »

That's the problem. They're pretty average lenses ('average' in the technical sense, not the vernacular sense as a euphemism for 'poor'). Sure, they're lightweight and fairly cheap - if that's what you need, then they're great. But, for those who are after performance first, with weight and price being secondary concerns, they offer very little.

They're sharp, but still beaten at the same aperture by their f/2.8 counterparts, not to mention primes.



If weight and price are secondary to image quality...why not just get the 2.8 zooms?
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2020, 09:29:53 pm »

If weight and price are secondary to image quality...why not just get the 2.8 zooms?

That's exactly what I did - for lack of better options. Not because f/4 zooms can't be good enough, or even sharper.

I'll take the sharper option, whichever one it is. In the case of the Canon 70-200/4 IS (back in 2009, when the competition was the softer 70-200/2,8 Mk I) and the current Sony 12-24/4 (where no real competition exists), it was the f/4 lens. In other cases, it's an f/2.8 lens - the aperture adds nothing useful (except in the case of 70-200, when it can also cover for action/portraits), the weight is annoying, but, if it's the sharpest option, I'll take it. But I'll keep looking for something better/lighter, and, if it comes along, I'll take it.

Make them all f/4 and I'd take them any day, even at the same price. Price the f/4 lens like the current f/2.8s, with zoom ranges chosen to optimise image quality rather than convenience, and you could make them much sharper than the f/2.8s for the same price, likely matching primes in the f/4-11 aperture range.

(Re: zoom ranges - good examples are Sigma's 24-35/2 and Tamron's new 70-180/2.8. Non-standard zoom ranges, chosen to optimise an area of performance other than the two-body, instant-shooting convenience desired by even photographers. In the case of the Sigma, it was to achieve an f/2 aperture. In the Tamron's case, it was in order to be able to make a lens half the size of a 70-200 design. Take the same approach for optical quality - make it 12-21 instead of 12-24, or 35-105 instead of 24-105, if it means you can make a sharper lens, then fill the gap with a 21-35.)
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chez

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2020, 09:45:37 pm »

That's exactly what I did - for lack of better options. Not because f/4 zooms can't be good enough, or even sharper.

I'll take the sharper option, whichever one it is. In the case of the Canon 70-200/4 IS (back in 2009, when the competition was the softer 70-200/2,8 Mk I) and the current Sony 12-24/4 (where no real competition exists), it was the f/4 lens. In other cases, it's an f/2.8 lens - the aperture adds nothing useful (except in the case of 70-200, when it can also cover for action/portraits), the weight is annoying, but, if it's the sharpest option, I'll take it. But I'll keep looking for something better/lighter, and, if it comes along, I'll take it.

Make them all f/4 and I'd take them any day, even at the same price. Price the f/4 lens like the current f/2.8s, with zoom ranges chosen to optimise image quality rather than convenience, and you could make them much sharper than the f/2.8s for the same price, likely matching primes in the f/4-11 aperture range.

(Re: zoom ranges - good examples are Sigma's 24-35/2 and Tamron's new 70-180/2.8. Non-standard zoom ranges, chosen to optimise an area of performance other than the two-body, instant-shooting convenience desired by even photographers. In the case of the Sigma, it was to achieve an f/2 aperture. In the Tamron's case, it was in order to be able to make a lens half the size of a 70-200 design. Take the same approach for optical quality - make it 12-21 instead of 12-24, or 35-105 instead of 24-105, if it means you can make a sharper lens, then fill the gap with a 21-35.)

I shoot primes for 3 reasons:

1. Best image quality
2. Fastest lenses
3. Lightest lenses for a given aperture

If you truly put image quality on a pedestal above cost and weight...then primes are your friends.

By the way, what do you shoot. Maybe post some samples to give us a feel where high quality f4 zooms is your answer. Also, what is the final destination of your images.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #98 on: March 07, 2020, 10:07:16 pm »

I shoot primes for 3 reasons:

1. Best image quality
2. Fastest lenses
3. Lightest lenses for a given aperture

If you truly put image quality on a pedestal above cost and weight...then primes are your friends.

You no longer have the best image quality if you have to crop because your lens doesn't exactly match the required focal length. Crop a 42MP image taken with a 35mm lens down to the angle of view of a 46mm lens and you're down to 24MP. If you have a 50mm lens but need 62mm, you're down to 27MP. Stitching is possible (and I do it whenever possible) but not always - sometimes there are moving elements or rapidly-changing light, and other times you can't use a tripod.. And foot zooming isn't a thing with landscapes/cityscapes and a lot of travel photography - you can't foot zoom off a cliff or 200m into the air, and it changes your composition (yes, you want that mountain in the background, but also that rock in the foreground). You're stuck with one vantage point for any given composition, and need to find the right focal length for that.

It's also no longer the lightest option once you factor in that you'd need to bring 20 or so lenses to cover the 14-400mm focal length range.

When not on a dedicated wildlife trip, I only need fast lenses and wide aperture at one or two focal lengths, for subject isolation when shooting the occasional portrait or 'artsy'-type shot. I don't need that throughout the entire focal length range. It's easy enough to throw one or two primes into the mix. For every other focal length, wide aperture is a hindrance rather than an advantage, since it adds weight without any functional benefit (wide aperture, like anything else, is only of benefit if you're actually using it).

Quote
By the way, what do you shoot. Maybe post some samples to give us a feel where high quality f4 zooms is your answer. Also, what is the final destination of your images.

I've been posting for years. Here's one example. You can't foot zoom, since it would change the composition drastically (or you'd be standing in traffic). You can't stitch, since the cars would move. You're need to do it in one shot (or at least most of the frame in one shot - you can blend the buildings in multiple exposures).

Lots of them end up as large prints - 30x90" panoramas, or for single frames (where zooms are most relevant - if you can stitch, you can use a prime) 40x60" prints.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikkor Z 20mm f/1.8S vs Sony 20mm f/1.8G
« Reply #99 on: March 08, 2020, 01:49:39 am »

So you are trying to tell me more professional photographers use f4 zooms than 2.8 zooms. Really? Have any proof of this?

As far as total blur...that's a amateur's style. Most portraits / people shots are in the f2.8 range which provides enough blur in the background to give you focus on the people...yet does not totally obscure the background and take all the environment / context out.

I know quite a few professional photographers and exactly zero use an f4 zoom for their work.

No I have no proof that more professional photographers use f4 zooms than f2.8 zooms. I also never said that.

I have no idea how many professional photographers you know. I doubt it’s as many as I know since I have been a professional photographer since 1994 and before that worked for professional photographers in photolabs from the time I left the military at age 21. No idea why any of this is even relevant.

I use F4 zooms. Most of my career I didn’t use f2.8 zooms since most of my career was spent shooting large format film and MFDB. Now I shoot what ever the job calls for. For me that is virtually never f2.8 zooms. I shoot a lot of furniture, interiors, clothing, products. Next week I am doing three days of documentary style work for a client to show off their factory and some pharmaceutical products. I’m pretty sure I won’t miss the 2.8 zooms I don’t have.
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Commercial photography is 10% inspiration and 90% moving furniture around.
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