Bernie defends Castro

[petermfiore]

Alan is the one alarmed about the government knowing whether he votes or not. I was just pointing out to that the government does know whether he has voted or not. In fact, the government will be happy to sell you that information about your friends and neighbors. I am not losing any sleep over it.

How exactly can one buy that information About neighbors and friends from the government?

[faberryman]

How exactly can one buy that information About neighbors and friends from the government?

Since we just finished the South Carolina primary, here is the information you can get about South Carolina voters:

https://www.scvotes.org/sale-voter-registration-lists

You live in Pennsylvania. Since you have to register party affiliation, that information is available as well:

https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/PurchasePAFULLVoterExport.aspx

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Since we just finished the South Carolina primary, here is the information you can get about South Carolina voters:

https://www.scvotes.org/sale-voter-registration-lists

You live in Pennsylvania. Since you have to register party affiliation, that information is available as well:

https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/PurchasePAFULLVoterExport.aspx

Interesting.

Sounds like a treasure trove for identity theft.

Which reminds me of the 2016 case where, allegedly, Russian hackers accessed voter registration data. If only they knew they could get it for $20 instead.

[Ray]

Who the heck cares if the government is concerned!? If anybody, it is people who should be concerned. Or not.

What a strange question. Of course it's the people who care, and it's obviously only 'the people who care' who are the ones who care. And it's obvious that members of the government are also people. We don't expect dogs and cats to care about voter turnout, except to the extent they might be sad to see their owners leaving them alone in the house when they depart to the voting booth. 

[faberryman]

Which reminds me of the 2016 case where, allegedly, Russian hackers accessed voter registration data. If only they knew they could get it for $20 instead.

I think they are more interested in changing data in the voter rolls than just getting a printout.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I think they are more interested in changing data in the voter rolls than just getting a printout.

Which was not the case.

[faberryman]

Which was not the case.

Right. I believe that while several states' systems were accessed in 2016, no information was changed.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

So, if no-one bothers to vote, is that democracy...

Ray, to address the first part of your hypothetical. Obviously, no-one is an unlikely extreme. But low turnout is a possibility and often a reality. What does that tell us? That most people couldn't care less what government does. This government or that government, people will go about their lives, knowing that plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ("the more things change, the more they stay the same").

Italy is a perfect example. Since the WWII, they've had as many governments as there were years, and yet, Italy continues to function and remains the 7th industrial power in the world.

[Ray]

First off, people do vote.  Arguing no-one votes is a false argument. 

Of course some people vote, and some people don't bother to vote. It's extremely unlikely that no-one would vote in a particular electorate on a particular occasion, just as it's unlikely there would ever be a 100% turnout of voters at a particular election, whether voting is compulsory or not.

Zero to 100% is the range of the spectrum. The issue is, at what point on that spectrum does it become obvious that there is a problem with the democratic political system that needs to be addressed.

Second, who cares if people don't vote?  If they not concerned enough to vote, who wants them to vote anyway? They won't understand what the issues are or who the candidates are and what they represent.  Those that do, but don't vote anyway, may be making a case that the candidates don't represent their views.  If the party wants their vote, they have to get people who do.  Forcing them to vote for someone they don't want or waste time going to the polls to vote for no one, is just stupid.

I agree that forcing stupid people to vote is stupid. However, among those people who wouldn't bother to vote if it were not compulsory, there are probably some intelligent ones who might think, 'I wish I didn't have to do this, but since I'm going to vote to avoid a $50 fine, I'll read up on the candidates' background and policies so I can make an informed decision, because, after all, I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person'.

Bottom line is government should mind its business.

Exactly, and a very important part of the business of a democratic government is to get feed-back on the government policies and encourage participation in the democratic process. Compulsory voting helps to some extent, but it's not a complete solution. More education is required, especially more 'free' education, or 'tax-funded' education, to be more precise.

[Craig Lamson]

Alan is the one alarmed about the government knowing whether he votes or not. I was just pointing out to that the government does know whether he has voted or not. In fact, the government will be happy to sell you that information about your friends and neighbors. I am not losing any sleep over it.

Funny I read this in your post, silly me I assumed you meant it....

"That's how the Republicans are able to purge the voter rolls of people who haven't voted in the last five years."

[Ray]

Italy is a perfect example. Since the WWII, they've had as many governments as there were years, and yet, Italy continues to function and remains the 7th industrial power in the world.

I recall not long ago Italy was in serious financial trouble, together with Portugal, Greece and Spain, often referred to collectively as PIGS. 

[petermfiore]

Since we just finished the South Carolina primary, here is the information you can get about South Carolina voters:

https://www.scvotes.org/sale-voter-registration-lists

You live in Pennsylvania. Since you have to register party affiliation, that information is available as well:

https://www.pavoterservices.pa.gov/Pages/PurchasePAFULLVoterExport.aspx

Thank you...

Peter

[Alan Klein]

Alan is the one alarmed about the government knowing whether he votes or not. I was just pointing out to that the government does know whether he has voted or not. In fact, the government will be happy to sell you that information about your friends and neighbors. I am not losing any sleep over it.

Frank,  I never was alarmed about whether the government knows whether you vote or not.  What I said was there should not be a fine for not voting.  Please re-read all the pertinent posts.

[Alan Klein]

Of course some people vote, and some people don't bother to vote. It's extremely unlikely that no-one would vote in a particular electorate on a particular occasion, just as it's unlikely there would ever be a 100% turnout of voters at a particular election, whether voting is compulsory or not.

Zero to 100% is the range of the spectrum. The issue is, at what point on that spectrum does it become obvious that there is a problem with the democratic political system that needs to be addressed.

I agree that forcing stupid people to vote is stupid. However, among those people who wouldn't bother to vote if it were not compulsory, there are probably some intelligent ones who might think, 'I wish I didn't have to do this, but since I'm going to vote to avoid a $50 fine, I'll read up on the candidates' background and policies so I can make an informed decision, because, after all, I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person'.
 

Exactly, and a very important part of the business of a democratic government is to get feed-back on the government policies and encourage participation in the democratic process. Compulsory voting helps to some extent, but it's not a complete solution. More education is required, especially more 'free' education, or 'tax-funded' education, to be more precise.

Ray you covered a lot of territory.  First off, how would the government determine whether a person did not vote because he's stupid and shouldn;t vote or  that he's really smart but didn't do his civic duty?  On the other hand, that gives me an idea.  We should give IQ tests to voters and anyone below three digits is prohibited from voting. 

There's plenty of free education in America, from Kindergarten through the 12th grade.  After that, many colleges are free or government supported.  The problem is Civics isn't taught like it use to be.  People don;t understand the American government, how it works, what the Constitution means and what it stands for, etc.  So yes, many Americans are ignorant of history, politics, and American law and government.  They have no idea what Socialism, Communism, Capitalism are.  It's regrettable, but they're really dumb about these things.  All they know is they want free stuff.  Democracy is dangerous.  We should fine people for voting. 

[Alan Klein]

Speaking of voter rolls, I moved to New Jersey 6 years ago where I vote now for New Jersey officials.  I'm still listed in the Queens, NYC, New York State voter rolls where I lived before and could probably still vote there if I showed up on election day.  I doubt if they removed my name from the voters rolls in NY.  They may have a procedure to have to show recent photo ID but that's being blocked by the dumb Supreme Court because people say the having to show a photo ID to vote is racist.  Of course, it would be illegal for me to vote in any case since I';m no longer a resident of New York.  Of course if someone voted in my place secretly, who would know.  That's why voter rolls have to be cleared from time to time.  It provides people with a feeling the whole voting procedure is honest, something very important in a Democracy when you see the fraud that happens in some countries.  In Chicago, people have been known to maintain their civic duty and continue voting long after they passed. 

[Rob C]

Ray, to address the first part of your hypothetical. Obviously, no-one is an unlikely extreme. But low turnout is a possibility and often a reality. What does that tell us? That most people couldn't care less what government does. This government or that government, people will go about their lives, knowing that plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ("the more things change, the more they stay the same").

Italy is a perfect example. Since the WWII, they've had as many governments as there were years, and yet, Italy continues to function and remains the 7th industrial power in the world.

Italy is a basket case. What functions is corruption, the Mafia, the Camorra, and the rest of them:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=UcZcXsKLDs6Wa_egjqgE&q=italian+mafia+types&oq=italian+maia+types&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i13.5642.6063..7960...0.2..0.82.159.2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.oANaBpqny90

What accounts for the movement of everything:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/30/italy-mafia-networks-are-more-complex-and-powerful-says-minister

Often, the line between politician and gangster is every thin indeed, if not entirely cosmetic.

Is that what you think is progress, or something that you want to live inside?

Rob

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Italy is a basket case...

If you can describe the 7th industrial power in the world and 2nd in Europe (only behind Germany) as a “basket case,” sure.

...Often, the line between politician and gangster is every thin indeed, if not entirely cosmetic.

Is that what you think is progress, or something that you want to live inside?

I thought you love Rome and once dreamt of  living there? Isn’t your website named after Rome?

[Rob C]

Rome doth not a country make, though once it did. An empire, even!

There is a romantic link with it in my mind due to family.

Rob

[petermfiore]

There is a romantic link with it in my mind due to family.

Rob

I have that with Montalbano Elicona Sicily...Everyone before me was born there,  the link to the town and its beautiful surrounds> http://www.sicily.co.uk/nearby_town/montalbano-elicona/

Peter

[Rob C]

I have that with Montalbano Elicona Sicily...Everyone before me was born there,  the link to the town and its beautiful surrounds> http://www.sicily.co.uk/nearby_town/montalbano-elicona/

Peter

Peter, have you watched the Montalbano series of Sicily-based detective stories? They are wonderful to watch, especially when you can bring a certain predisposed spiritual simpatico with you while watching.

I have been watching some of them again on the iPad... so much of the scenery is so similar to parts of Mallorca that it makes me wonder if actually leaving here is possible, even if I manage to sell the apartment.

The Italian seems to be a mix of Italian and Sicilian, but still love the show.