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Author Topic: Old Street  (Read 7944 times)

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2020, 02:29:32 pm »

Maybe you are right.
Not long ago one "Greater Nation" near Europe tried to remedy that situation through the so called "ethnical cleansing" in their region and around but were bombed back into humanity by other Neanderthals and subhumans.
Backward peoples, not ready to see the Light...

That is both offensive and irrelevant. Consider yourself warned.

Jeremy
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RSL

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2020, 02:58:21 pm »

1. That is where we differ very strongly.

2. No, what was done then is now history: I do not believe in rewriting it. I'm told homosexuality is to be "celebrated" today; a few decades ago it could get you a prison sentence or worse - in some places it still can. The same thing is often both right and wrong. I would never advocate destroying art anymore than do I agree with renaming city squares and streets that were originally named after tobacco traders and things associated with slavery; pulling down centuries-old statues of people once considered heroes is daft: a country deserves to know its own history, for better or for worse.

3. Photojournalism is a public service, whereas street photography is a private indugence. Street photos are usually about one person or group; collateral damage is mostly far enough away not to count as subject of the picture. Klein and others tell one that they often use a very wide angle lens and get close because people think the photographer is actually shooting past them, and they sometimes turn around to look for what they think is going down behind them. It's often said one must avoid eye contact with the target, because that way, they won't suspect it's they who are the subjects. Something like not looking at lions if you happen to walk past them. ;-)

4. Absolutely! And that's why HC-B is also above reproach.

Rob

Rob, it looks as if we’re just going to have to disagree. So I’ll offer a friendly hand and agree to disagree. The point’s moot anyway because you’re in an environment where what I do would be illegal.

But it seems you’re saying that beyond the legal issue there’s a moral issue; that it was all right when HCB did it, but not all right nowadays. I guess my question is: what’s changed to make it morally incorrect nowadays when it wasn’t in HCB’s day?

Beyond that, why is photojournalism a public service but street photograph a personal indulgence? We just decided HCB’s stuff could survive. Was what he was doing a personal indulgence? If so, why should it survive? I don’t know much about current photojournalism in Europe, but I can assure you that here in the States when, say, MSNBC does “photojournalism” it’s just as much a personal indulgence as biased street photography – probably a good deal more so in an election year. What makes photography on the street legitimate for the press, but not for private individuals? You certainly don’t think the press is unbiased.

Finally, you find that because HCB’s street work was gentle and on the human side, it’s above reproach. How about Elliott Erwitt’s street photography? How about Chim’s street photography? His was some of the tenderest ever done. How about Helen Levitt’s street photography? How about Robert Frank’s street photography? Remember, Frank showed the truth about America at a time when Norman Rockwell’s painting and Alfred Eisenstadt’s photography were showing nothing but sweetness and light.

(By the way, seems to me this is the kind of discussion we ought to be having over in the Coffee Corner instead of the political crap being pumped out over there.)
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RSL

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2020, 03:26:11 pm »

Maybe you are right.
Not long ago one "Greater Nation" near Europe tried to remedy that situation through the so called "ethnical cleansing" in their region and around but were bombed back into humanity by other Neanderthals and subhumans.
Backward peoples, not ready to see the Light...

Easy does it, Rab. I'd hate to see you banned from this debate.
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rabanito

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2020, 04:10:51 pm »

Easy does it, Rab. I'd hate to see you banned from this debate.

Thanks Russ. I also don't like being compared with "Neanderthals" or "Sharia Follower" in a pejorative way.
The moderator should have reacted in time.
If he doesn't, it's up to oneself to set the limits.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2020, 04:14:46 pm »

... I also don't like being compared with "Neanderthals" or "Sharia Follower" in a pejorative way...

You?

Where did I mention you?

rabanito

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2020, 04:52:41 pm »

(By the way, seems to me this is the kind of discussion we ought to be having over in the Coffee Corner instead of the political crap being pumped out over there.)

Hear!  :)
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2020, 04:21:12 am »

Thanks Russ. I also don't like being compared with "Neanderthals" or "Sharia Follower" in a pejorative way.
The moderator should have reacted in time.
If he doesn't, it's up to oneself to set the limits.

Odd as it may seem, I don't sit at a computer monitoring every post on the forums; I have better (far, far better) things to do with my time. I look in fairly frequently and act when I consider it appropriate.

It is indeed up to members to set limits. You overstepped them once. Don't do it again.

Jeremy
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rabanito

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2020, 05:12:12 am »

Odd as it may seem, I don't sit at a computer monitoring every post on the forums; I have better (far, far better) things to do with my time.

Absolutely. That's why sometimes one has to put things in its place without bothering the moderator constantly.
There was no personal offence intended. But we were having (or better I was attending to) an interesting, respectful and serious debate on personal rights and photography until then.
For the other kind of debate one can go to the Coffee Corner and analyse Trump, Brexit, the Weather, the Sussexes vs the Queen or whatever.
Just MHO.
Sorry for the annoyance. It's not likely to happen again
 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2020, 05:20:43 am »

I consider Rob’s suggestion that people should be punched in the nose, their faces blooded or worse, just because someone took a picture of their wife or daughter in public, simply Neanderthal.

Rob C

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2020, 08:14:02 am »

I consider Rob’s suggestion that people should be punched in the nose, their faces blooded or worse, just because someone took a picture of their wife or daughter in public, simply Neanderthal.

If protective of family, Neanderthal let it be.

More power to the punch. (Trouble is, it's difficult to move that fast in your 80s...)

;-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2020, 08:38:57 am »

If protective of family, Neanderthal let it be...

What exactly is there to protect!? You sound like a medieval-mindset Muslim, protecting their property from even looks in public.

My daughter, like gazillion other women, dresses to impress when in public, and definitely wants to be seen and noticed. If someone takes a photo of her in public, so what? She, as gazillion other girls, has much more revealing photos on her social media pages. 

RSL

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2020, 08:56:25 am »

If protective of family, Neanderthal let it be.

More power to the punch. (Trouble is, it's difficult to move that fast in your 80s...)

;-)


Rob, I don't want to beat it to death, but how about in HCB's day? We both were around in that day. Did you feel the same then?
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rabanito

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2020, 09:46:25 am »


Rob, I don't want to beat it to death, but how about in HCB's day? We both were around in that day. Did you feel the same then?

HCB  said once that a photographer is “somewhere between pickpocket and tightrope walker”, because taking a photo “takes something that belongs to the subject: their image, their culture”.

I believe that he didn't like being photographed himself either. But this is maybe an urban legend
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 10:08:24 am by rabanito »
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RSL

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2020, 11:31:33 am »

It’s no urban legend, Rab. but he still got photographed often – later on, after he’d become famous. The other thing you have to remember about HCB is that what he really wanted was to be a painter.

Pictures belong to their subjects and to their culture. But what does belonging to a culture mean? I think that if you depend on images in the “media,” in the old days meaning drawings from life, and later photographs, to define a culture, you’re depending on a biased view. I’m not necessarily talking about political bias, though that may be there too. But there’s always a bias toward selling things – the media themselves above all. Which is why Rockwell and Eisenstadt were so popular in their day. They were selling a self-image to a nation. Robert Frank went a long way toward supplementing that image, which wasn’t wrong, just incomplete, with the rest of the truth: things like “sanitation approved” motels and blacks in the back of the bus. To top off my disagreement with Rob’s view, I think photography has to be a personal indulgence to be honest. The minute commerce comes into it, it becomes a sales pitch at least to some degree.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2020, 11:53:49 am »

It’s no urban legend, Rab. but he still got photographed often – later on, after he’d become famous. The other thing you have to remember about HCB is that what he really wanted was to be a painter.

Pictures belong to their subjects and to their culture. But what does belonging to a culture mean? I think that if you depend on images in the “media,” in the old days meaning drawings from life, and later photographs, to define a culture, you’re depending on a biased view. I’m not necessarily talking about political bias, though that may be there too. But there’s always a bias toward selling things – the media themselves above all. Which is why Rockwell and Eisenstadt were so popular in their day. They were selling a self-image to a nation. Robert Frank went a long way toward supplementing that image, which wasn’t wrong, just incomplete, with the rest of the truth: things like “sanitation approved” motels and blacks in the back of the bus. To top off my disagreement with Rob’s view, I think photography has to be a personal indulgence to be honest. The minute commerce comes into it, it becomes a sales pitch at least to some degree.
Well put, Russ.
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Rob C

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2020, 01:23:07 pm »


Rob, I don't want to beat it to death, but how about in HCB's day? We both were around in that day. Did you feel the same then?


 
It's something that's grown into me as I age: I no longer see everybody in the world as somehow there for my personal pleasure, to do with as I will if I can get away with it.

That said, to revert to the topic of those old photographers like HC-B, Ronis et al., and before jumping to the conclusion that professionalism inevitably leads to sin, you must bear in mind that they were not working for themselves either: they were all selling to, and shooting for, mainly far-left publications, which accounts for the plethora of "charming" photographs of lower-working-class people; it's striking how the published images strive to represent a Paris and country of peasants; it's as if they were almost the entire population. That was the point: make the population appear somehow oppressed; it's how you stoke revolution. More than one such photographer flirted with communism, so don't allow pretty pictures to blind you to the other sides of the personalities you see today in those coffee table editions.

None of those guys, French or recent émigrés, was doing photography just for the hell of it, quite unlike most of those who revere them today.

Rob C

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2020, 01:27:49 pm »

What exactly is there to protect!? You sound like a medieval-mindset Muslim, protecting their property from even looks in public.

My daughter, like gazillion other women, dresses to impress when in public, and definitely wants to be seen and noticed. If someone takes a photo of her in public, so what? She, as gazillion other girls, has much more revealing photos on her social media pages.


That is her privilege to do and yours to approve. I have no interest in how she and her friends choose to behave; nothing to do with me or my family at all, and nothing to do with religious zealots either.

Rob
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 04:56:14 am by Rob C »
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RSL

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2020, 03:10:30 pm »


 
It's something that's grown into me as I age: I no longer see everybody in the world as somehow there for my personal pleasure, to do with as I will if I can get away with it.

That said, to revert to the topic of those old photographers like HC-B, Ronis et al., and before jumping to the conclusion that professionalism inevitably leads to sin, you must bear in mind that they were not working for themselves either: they were all selling to, and shooting for, mainly far-left publications, which accounts for the plethora of "charming" photographs of lower-working-class people; it's striking how the published images strive to represent a Paris and country of peasants; it's as if they were almost the entire population. That was the point: make the population appear somehow oppressed; it's how you stoke revolution. More than one such photographer flirted with communism, so don't allow pretty pictures to blind you to the other sides of the personalities you see today in those coffee table editions.

None of those guys, French or recent émigrés, was doing photography just for the hell of it, quite unlike most of those who revere them today.

Hi Rob, Of course professionalism doesn’t lead to sin. But it does lead to the slant desired by the person or outfit paying the tab. Let’s face it; if it doesn’t you’re out of a job next time around.

Some of the professionals, after doing their professional work, reverted to personal indulgence in their off hours. To me the classic example was Elliott Erwitt who, after putting away his boxcar-sized collection of professional gear, would get out his battered-looking Leica and start doing the fun stuff, which sort of is why we have that beautiful picture of Nixon poking his finger at Khrushchev. Erwitt has long been one of my all-time favorites because of his sense of humor.

And if you really believe what you’re saying about peasants, please give me at least a short list of examples. I don’t remember HCB doing a bunch of peasants. Quite the contrary – unless you’re thinking about the boat people in “Locks at Bougival.” But these folks weren’t peasants. They were hard-working boat folks with a grandma and a baby. He did do some Russian peasants because communism had pretty much reduced the country to rulers and the peasants.

I don’t have any coffee-table editions, though I do have a copy of HCB’s The Decisive Moment, whose title wasn’t an accurate translation of the original title: Images à la Sauvette, the translation of which, if my research is correct (my year of French won’t do it) includes the implication of a touch of sin.

In any case, I’m not the least bit worried about carrying on the traditions of street photography. Fifty years from now we’ll have a pretty good resumé of life and attitudes in the United States during the early two-thousand twenties. Europe’s resumé, produced by European media, will tell us all about politics.
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chez

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2020, 07:50:41 pm »

What exactly is there to protect!? You sound like a medieval-mindset Muslim, protecting their property from even looks in public.

My daughter, like gazillion other women, dresses to impress when in public, and definitely wants to be seen and noticed. If someone takes a photo of her in public, so what? She, as gazillion other girls, has much more revealing photos on her social media pages.

If I'm out for a nice quiet dinner with my wife and some Yahoo photographer comes along the street and tries to take our photo...he'll end up with a broken camera...if not a nose.

There are times when taking a candid photo in the street is great...and there are times when it's best to put the camera down or at the very least as permission.

I was in Morocco when photographing people is not looked upon kindly...it's amazing how some sweet talk gets you the image you want.

Like I said before...just because you can doesn't mean you should.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Old Street
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2020, 03:08:51 am »

If I'm out for a nice quiet dinner with my wife and some Yahoo photographer comes along the street and tries to take our photo...he'll end up with a broken camera...if not a nose...

And you’ll end up in jail.

Plus you’ll get my personal award: The Neanderthal of the Year.
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