Old Street

[RSL]

Busted, as are her pants, now!

;-)

 

[petermfiore]

I am now in two minds about chez' shots: on the one hand, stolen or given, they are wonderful images; on the other hand, they fall down the scale a little bit if I believe them to have been manufactured. If they have, then they rate no more highly on my personal scale than any other good, commercially produced shot. Theft and rapid reaction are of the essence in street; theft but not violent theft.

;-)

I agree with this take...

Peter

[Jim Pascoe]

I've been away for a few days in the snowy, sunny, dark, wet, windy Peak District (middle of England for you foreign types).  And yes those conditions do all happen on the same day....

The length of this thread seems to have been triggered by Russ's view's on strict privacy laws in Europe. 

Firstly, Europe is a big place, and certainly in the UK anyone in a public place is 'fair game' to be photographed.  So saying, I agree with Rob in general on this subject.  Just because the law does not proscribe photographing anyone in public, I do think that people have a right to their privacy.  This is distinct from their legal 'Rights'.  I do enjoy photographing candidly when out and about and if it can be done discretely then I try not to be noticed.  If I am noticed, a friendly smile is usually all that is needed.  Or, having got my shot, but then being noticed, I'm happy to go up to the subject and explain what I'm doing.

I don't know all the rules in other European countries, but I believe France do have privacy rules about public photography.  Where this thread seems to have entered a heated debate is whether this has an effect on your typical photographer doing Street photography.  I often do 'Street' photography in France.  I've never encountered a problem.  Hell, if you wanted to do 'Street' without ever being noticed, just use a phone camera.  Everyone is walking around with them now - you would not get a second glance.
My understanding is that France enacted the privacy law to protect public figures from being hounded when trying to lead their private lives.  Which I have some sympathy for.  I honestly doubt it impacts on the typical street photographer.  What are most of you doing with your pictures - selling them to magazines?  No, I thought not.  They are mainly for your own fun and satisfaction.  In which case there is unlikely to be a problem anywhere in Europe.

Jim

[chez]

I am now in two minds about chez' shots: on the one hand, stolen or given, they are wonderful images; on the other hand, they fall down the scale a little bit if I believe them to have been manufactured. If they have, then they rate no more highly on my personal scale than any other good, commercially produced shot. Theft and rapid reaction are of the essence in street; theft but not violent theft.

;-)

Nothing manufactured, nothing posed...everything natural. If one feels you need to sneak around with a camera peaking out from behind your trench coat to take "real street" images that are not "manufactured"...then so be it. I tend to view things not from the two extremes, but somewhere between.

[KLaban]

I am now in two minds about chez' shots: on the one hand, stolen or given, they are wonderful images; on the other hand, they fall down the scale a little bit if I believe them to have been manufactured. If they have, then they rate no more highly on my personal scale than any other good, commercially produced shot. Theft and rapid reaction are of the essence in street; theft but not violent theft.

;-)

I agree with this take...

Peter

Manufactured? I've not seen anything in this thread that could be considered to be manufactured. Given, well perhaps.

People, please note Rob's wink.

;-)

[Jim Pascoe]

Manufactured? I've not seen anything in this thread that could be considered to be manufactured. Given, well perhaps.

People, please note Rob's wink.

;-)

Keith - I was not sure why you had copied my reply into your post - I did not refer to 'manufactured'.

Jim

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

It you talk to your subjects and get them to pose, it is manufactured.

[chez]

It you talk to your subjects and get them to pose, it is manufactured.

Yes, if one poses their subjects...but where do you see that? Talking or making eye contact and taking time to get the right shot with your subject as they go about their daily business is not posing in any way.

I do not believe talking with the subject to gain both our confidence is in no way manufacturing an image. Instead it's showing respect to the subject and with that respect gained, you get much more natural images...not ones where you swoop in, real off 20 images just to get one that shows the subject in a compromising view.

Yeh, we've all see the overweight lady standing by the diet sign hanging in the window...run and gun without respect.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Yeh, we've all see the overweight lady standing by the diet sign hanging in the window...run and gun without respect.

What respect? For the fat cow or the sign?

[RSL]

I've been away for a few days in the snowy, sunny, dark, wet, windy Peak District (middle of England for you foreign types).  And yes those conditions do all happen on the same day....

The length of this thread seems to have been triggered by Russ's view's on strict privacy laws in Europe. 

Firstly, Europe is a big place, and certainly in the UK anyone in a public place is 'fair game' to be photographed.  So saying, I agree with Rob in general on this subject.  Just because the law does not proscribe photographing anyone in public, I do think that people have a right to their privacy.  This is distinct from their legal 'Rights'.  I do enjoy photographing candidly when out and about and if it can be done discretely then I try not to be noticed.  If I am noticed, a friendly smile is usually all that is needed.  Or, having got my shot, but then being noticed, I'm happy to go up to the subject and explain what I'm doing.

I don't know all the rules in other European countries, but I believe France do have privacy rules about public photography.  Where this thread seems to have entered a heated debate is whether this has an effect on your typical photographer doing Street photography.  I often do 'Street' photography in France.  I've never encountered a problem.  Hell, if you wanted to do 'Street' without ever being noticed, just use a phone camera.  Everyone is walking around with them now - you would not get a second glance.
My understanding is that France enacted the privacy law to protect public figures from being hounded when trying to lead their private lives.  Which I have some sympathy for.  I honestly doubt it impacts on the typical street photographer.  What are most of you doing with your pictures - selling them to magazines?  No, I thought not.  They are mainly for your own fun and satisfaction.  In which case there is unlikely to be a problem anywhere in Europe.

Jim

Hi, Jim,

I’m glad to hear that European privacy laws aren’t as strict as they’ve been made to sound. But the words “public” and “private” have pretty specific meanings, and the idea of having privacy in public seems an oxymoron. But as you say, it’s a personal feeling. When I’m doing street photography, like you I smile a lot, and make myself as invisible as possible without making it obvious that I’m trying to be invisible – which is what I sometimes see photographers do. If I get caught making a shot – or fairly often even if I don’t and if I think the picture is pretty good -- I show the subject the picture on the LCD, offer to get his (or her’s or their) email address and email a copy. (Thank Heaven for digital. Right Rob?)

I certainly agree with France’s concern for public figures, and interestingly enough there’s a similar law in most states in the U.S., but the law has to do exclusively with public figures. If you ain’t a public guy you ain’t covered.

What I’ve been doing with my pictures is putting them on my web. I also built a program in C# to analyze the daily logs from the site. The program tells me what people are looking at and where the lookers are from. What I’ve found is interesting. I was shooting pictures in Korea during and immediately after that war, and again in Vietnam during that war. I wasn’t shooting war pictures. I was mostly shooting people pictures. That was before I knew anything at all about street photography. I’ve gotten an ever growing response from South Koreans for the Korean stuff – I suspect they want to see what their country and people were doing sixty-five years ago. You certainly can find out all about the war by digging up the news coverage from that period, but it seems interest goes beyond the kind of war pictures that have been done over and over and over war after war after war by the media. The response to the Vietnamese pictures is growing too, but it’s harder to analyze that kind of thing from a communist society.

Bottom line, beside the personal pleasure I get from finding a good street photograph, I think street photography is a public service. So there!

[KLaban]

Keith - I was not sure why you had copied my reply into your post - I did not refer to 'manufactured'.

Jim

Jim, neither am I.

Apologies, it was an error. Now removed.

[chez]

What respect? For the fat cow or the sign?

Oh yes...he who speaks about Neanderthals shows his colours.

[KLaban]

It you talk to your subjects and get them to pose, it is manufactured.

Again, I don't see anything in this thread that is posed or manufactured.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Again, I don't see anything in this thread that is posed or manufactured.

This thread is intertwined with several others, and Rob was making a reference to chez' other shots and to his remarks about "getting to know the subject."

[rabanito]

If you are doing "street" in your own environment, you probably interpret things correctly.
But for all people not acquainted with that environment you could be doing "street" in Mars. An alien world.
You are speaking Chinese.
Of course with some exceptions, like the real good street photographers.

If you are doing "street" in a foreign environment, the odds are that you are photographing your own prejudices or projections using the "street" just as background.
If you instead make contact with the subjects and they are aware of what you are doing, at least you are taking pictures of "people being photographed", which IMHO is more honest and satisfying.

[KLaban]

This thread is intertwined with several others, and Rob was making a reference to chez' other shots and to his remarks about "getting to know the subject."

I'm sure that much that Rob holds dear to his heart is posed, manufactured and is all the better for it.

[Rob C]

I'm sure that much that Rob holds dear to his heart is posed, manufactured and is all the better for it.

Thank you, but that was first fashion and then tit 'n' ass dressed up as fashion; I couldn't help myself. I don't think I ever managed to make a rude photograph, though I concede that that's a matter of opinion.

Yep, posed, and with tiny variations spread over thirty-six clicks!

;-)