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Author Topic: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom  (Read 4814 times)

James Clark

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Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« on: February 10, 2020, 05:08:05 pm »

Maybe this would be better suited for one of the more specific tech sections, but maybe not, because my question is really centered more around the processing side of things.  If a moderator feels it's better elsewhere, please feel free to move...

Anyway, I'm reading the reviews of the new M10 Monocrom, and they seem to be off-the-charts fantastic.  The specs on the camera are such that it would conceivably fit almost all of my needs in terms of capture and larger prints, and the files themselves are getting nothing but praise.

BUT... I've only ever worked with color to greyscale conversion, and my concern/question is how much flexibility you lose in creatively processing the file when you can't adjust luminance on specific color channels (i.e. the blue sky, green grass, red rocks etc.), but instead are limited to dodging and burning for tonal shifts.

Anyone here made the jump to a base monochrome file that has any thoughts on the differences, limitations, or benefits of working without a base color file?
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fgorga

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2020, 05:49:06 am »

James,

If you have a file with no color information you lose ALL ability to adjust tonality with the color sliders during the post processing of the photo. 

Rather you must resort to pre processing the colors using physical filters placed on the lens just like if you were using black and white film.

Dodging and burning is not a substitute.

Regards,

--- Frank
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kers

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2020, 08:07:17 am »

James,

If you have a file with no color information you lose ALL ability to adjust tonality with the color sliders during the post processing of the photo. 

Rather you must resort to pre processing the colors using physical filters placed on the lens just like if you were using black and white film.

Dodging and burning is not a substitute.

Regards,

--- Frank

+1
& the convenience you can choose the gray tints afterwards.

 & no EVF  as I believe...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 09:14:23 am by kers »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2020, 08:31:25 am »

Don't.

Not that I have something against a b&w camera per se. Just that you don't strike me as a one-trick pony photographer.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2020, 09:05:52 am »

$8300 for only the M10 Body.  For the same price you could buy a Nikon Z7 and maybe a full set of Z lenses (haven't done the math but the f4 zooms and the available primes would come in on budget).  Given the ability of modern photo processing software, it's really unclear whether the Leica provides anything but "maybe" a marginal benefit.  To me the biggest issue with B/W work is proper processing and the ability of your printer/paper combination to provide the results you want.  The camera, while important, is secondary.
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James Clark

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2020, 05:53:26 pm »

Good feedback - thank you.  Slobodan - appreciate the compliment, Frank & Kers - yes, that's exactly what I was asking - thanks much, and Alan, yes, it does help to put in perspective all the other goodies one could get instead a Leica ;). I had an M9 for awhile several years ago, and I went back and looked at my images.   Some were good, but it made me remember why I gave it up.
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Krug

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2020, 10:36:51 am »

Of course it is essentially a matter of personal preference but for what it is worth I keep my old CCD Monochrom and use it not infrequently and it does have it's pleasures and particular responses but it is limited compared to converting from a good chromatic body - but then I sold my M10 and went back to an M9 for Leica use ... not specifically for the CCD sensor but just it's simplicity and "honesty" - and (more than) adequacy.
A larger sensor more 'modern' chromatic body with good lenses and careful processing beats it for best result B+W prints every time for me.
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Paul_Roark

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2020, 10:50:21 am »

At a workshop a Lieicaphile and I compared her images to my Canon images.  That was the end of Canon for me.  The best Leica glass definitely deserves it's reputation.  That said, I sold my M9 when I compared what the Sony A7R body could deliver with that Leica glass on it IF, and only if, the Sony has the KoloriVision sensor cover-glass conversion.  Combining the best glass with the best sensor works very well indeed, at least for people like me who are manual focus, deliberate landscape types.

I would never give up the ability to do color "filtering" at home in Photoshop.  Being limited to just one filter per image is too limiting.

Good luck,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Jager

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2020, 09:05:56 am »

Post-processing Leica Monochrom files is very straightforward.  Albeit, if experimenting with color channels after-the-fact is your kind of thing, it's probably not for you.  But, really, that's the least of what the Monochrom is about.

A somewhat broader view of the M10-Monochrom...
A Trifecta of Monochrom's

Thibert_2020

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2020, 01:34:05 pm »

Good day to All

I have bought for a particular type of portraits an M10 Monochrom.  I have tried the Capture One V20 with a lot of crashing events and no camera specific profiles.  Any suggestions for Current users on the software that is the most suitable for this B&W sensor in the Leica family.  At this time, for me, its al lot of marketing and NOT a flowing machine.....

Thanks
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budjames

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2020, 07:51:11 am »

I love the idea of the M10 Monochrom as I'm a big fan of b&w. I was considering trading in one of my tow M10s for the Monochrom, but the hit I would take on the value of the M10 trade is a discouragement.

I have been shooting my SL2 with adapted M-lenses and converting to b&w using Capture One Pro 20. The results of the higher resolution sensor are amazing with the APO Summicron M 50mm and Nocticlux 50mm f0.95. Loving the shooting experience of the Noctilux on the SL2 as a find that I can focus this lens more reliably with the SL2's EVF.

Perhaps I might splurge on the M10, but not now.

Please keep the Monochrom conversation going and include some sample images.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.
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PeterAit

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2020, 04:21:14 pm »

I tried the Monocrom a while back--the old model I guess but much the same. With the 75mm Summicron. It was a sweet kit and took excellent photos, but despite much trying I could not see how the results were any better than converting color from a high-end full-frame color camera. And ~$12,000 for a body and one lens? I don't think so. Back to B&H it went.
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Allen Bourgeois

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2020, 09:19:49 am »

Hi James,

I say if you an afford it get it. I am an old dark room rat. Studied photography in college and had two semesters of the zone system. Yep I did all the tests. 4X5 and 8X10 view cameras. I still have the original MM and I also own a couple of M 10s. My next camera which probably wont be until late this year or early next will be an M 10 Mono. I have owned and used many other digital cameras (had Canon DSLRs for a decade and shot with have shot with Sony, Nikon, Fuji and a few others) and the only B&W digital I warmed up to was the MM. Heres a piece that Leica did on my work a couple of years ago where I talk a little about this:
https://www.leica-camera.blog/2016/12/15/spontaneous-relationships/

Here's a good piece comparing all 3 Monochrom's (OPPPS I think this link was already posted but worth a repost).
http://www.jeffreyhughes.net/photography/leica_m10_monochrom.html


I say rent one for a month or buy one and try it. If you buy one you can sell and you probably wont take much of a hit. Might be cheaper than renting. Give it some time and see what it is like to work with the files. It's a different experience and one that may or may not be right for you. It was right for me. I shoot almost all of my personal work on it. I only have color bodies because of my professional work. When I retire I will probably sell all of my color bodies.

That's my 2 cents. Take it for what it is worth.
Allen

Check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwvOFgoZo0
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 10:12:27 am by Allen Bourgeois »
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Allen Bourgeois

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2020, 09:35:14 am »

Good day to All

I have bought for a particular type of portraits an M10 Monochrom.  I have tried the Capture One V20 with a lot of crashing events and no camera specific profiles.  Any suggestions for Current users on the software that is the most suitable for this B&W sensor in the Leica family.  At this time, for me, its al lot of marketing and NOT a flowing machine.....

Thanks

Congrats on your M10M. I have the original MM and I use photoshop (CS6). I find it the most intuitive software for the way I see and work.
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Petrus

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2020, 03:03:08 pm »

30 years ago I would have sold both of my kidneys to be able to manipulate color to B&W mapping the way we now routinely do with PS and NIK or whatever.

Why would somebody pay $10000+ for an opportunity not to be able to do it?

Better resolution? Buy a sharper camera. Magic of Leica lenses? Nobody is going to notice. How the grayscales work everybody notices.
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BrianVS

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2020, 09:12:27 am »

If you want absolute resolution in a monochrome image without inducing artifacts caused by the color mosaic filter, get the M Monochrom and use with traditional color contrast filters. Use it similar to shooting B&W film. Remember that digital cameras are better at pulling detail from the shadow, but not as good at preserving blown highlights when compared with film. I've had my CCD based M Monochrom since 2012- will never sell it. I also have the M9. I did a number of comparisons of using the M Monochrom with contrast filters along side the M9 shooting color, then converting to monochrome using Lightroom and Silver Efex2. I went so far as to write my own conversion software to convert the M9 DNG to a flat-DNG with custom interpolation.
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photoenthusiasm

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2020, 01:23:48 am »

No experience with the M10monochrom but with the ccd monochrom. It is a hate-love relationship because you obviously have no workaround for loosing colorinformation. But: using physical filters and postprocesding in lightroom and silverefex results in files that make me forget the lack of colorinformation. It is the second time I own this camera. First time I had to sell it to raise funds since my workhorse crashed. This one stays! The combination of my Hasselblad x1dii (workhorse) and the monochrom couldnít be better!!! On fb have a look at charles niŽl photographer or on my website www.charlesniel.com
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John Camp

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2021, 04:27:39 pm »

No experience with the M10monochrom but with the ccd monochrom. It is a hate-love relationship because you obviously have no workaround for loosing colorinformation. But: using physical filters and postprocesding in lightroom and silverefex results in files that make me forget the lack of colorinformation. It is the second time I own this camera. First time I had to sell it to raise funds since my workhorse crashed. This one stays! The combination of my Hasselblad x1dii (workhorse) and the monochrom couldnít be better!!! On fb have a look at charles niŽl photographer or on my website www.charlesniel.com

Your flower shots remind me of Jan Bruegel. Very nice indeed.
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Gigi

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Re: Thinking about new Leica M10 Monocrom
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2021, 12:20:40 pm »

Sorry to run against the grain here: very much enjoy working with BW conversions off of MFDB, and there is lots of capability/flexibility there. Had an MM, but somehow it only worked for me when the light was just right - I had a lot of middling grey days where the images just seemed very flat to me. But in the right light, got some real killer shots. However it was limited with highlights and ISO, although it seemed good at the time.

Took the plunge, and traded it and some gear for an M10M, and never looked back. The new sensor makes magic out of almost all kinds of light, lots of flexibility. Sure, you lose the color filtration (after the shot) flexibility and that gave pause, but its overall usability is so enhanced that the camera is a dream to use. I have it set to min 1/250 shutter speed, so blur is no longer an issue. And it can shoot well into areas and zones that were previously tripod only. Like inside dark caves, etc. Tweak the files in C1 (v20 works well for me), adjust the curve for more contrast, and those flat shots in late afternoon light come out full of richness. Don't ask me how...

So... yes... it makes little sense. You give up some things, doesn't seem like you get that much more... until you use one. More fun than should be allowed.
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