Large format Printer Recommendation 36inch

[night_scaper]

Hello, I’m new to this forum so not sure if this has already been covered. US based photographer.
My wife and I do photography and recently landed a pretty large job which needs us to provide 50 prints at 36”x60” and 100 prints at 24”x36”
So given the cost to out source the printing, raised the question if it would make a lot more sense to purchase a large format printer to have for this job and others to come.
Biggest question I have is average cost per foot or inch for paper and ink or any other expenses involved.
I know this can be dependent on what photos you print and what printer you are using. Just trying to get a general idea.
Also looking for recommendations on what printer would be best option for the occasional print job and maybe more often down the road.  Thank you

[I.T. Supplies]

If you're mainly doing photography, you only have the options of 24", 44" and 60" models for this area.  36" is mainly technical printers that have 4-5 colors and usually made for technical drawings, blueprints and poster printing.  Photography won't look that good especially if selling to others.

Ink usage will differ per printer brand since they operate differently, but also on media type and settings to print.  This topic will have others with either similar suggestions or different (based on their experience with the brands and usage).

We feel that Epson and Canon would be the 2 best options at the moment since they have positive reviews on their current series.  HP still offers good quality, but there may be downfalls with features (lack of connection to computer; only works via Ethernet).  The older/current models have USB and Ethernet connections, but slow print speeds.

Epson and Canon are competing at the moment with their quality, speed, functionality and what not.
If you wanted to get more details of the different options available, feel free to contact us.  We carry all 3 brands of photo/fine art and technical models.

IT Supplies

[Rand47]

Some things to consider:

• If you are not already conversant with a color managed work flow, you will need to be for optimum print quality.  This could be a much bigger deal/effort than you realize.  If you're already conversant and a competent printer, then you can probably ignore the rest of my list, too!
• You might consider whether you think this job is a "one off" or the beginning of many similar opportunities where the economy of scale might justify the initial outlay for "everything you need" to do a really fine job making your own prints.  E.g., have you priced out how much it costs to fill up a 44" printer with ink?  And that's really just the beginning.  So, not to sound negative but take a really hard look of the total cost of doing this yourself.
• Space.  It sounds like you need at least a 44" printer.  They are large.  All the associated handling, packaging, area(s) etc. also have their own space demands.  Add to this temperature, humitity control, inventory storage, etc.
• Wastage in the learning curve to get to the place where you're pretty dialed in on reliable screen to print matching.

I print, and I love printing my own work.  I have a boutique, bespoke printing business for some select clients.  On the realistic "make a living" end, it just doesn't pencil out.  As a semi-retired perfection-freak who enjoys hanging out with other perfection-freak photographers, it is a blast.  But I don't fool myself into thinking I'm saving any money over having a really good lab produce prints.

Sincere good luck to you in this venture.  Sounds exciting.  If it is the opening to further, sustained, output of this type - you and your wife are among a very fortunate few these days.

Best regards,
Rand

[mearussi]

In the long run it would certainly save you a lot of money but at the cost of a huge learning curve if you're not already familiar with printing, so huge in fact that you may not get your present jobs done in time. 

First you have to consider how much your printing service is charging you vs how much you think your time is worth, because the paper and ink costs are proportionally fairly low, usually between $1.00-$3.00/sq ft. depending on what paper you choose.

Secondly, do you think you would enjoy it, because if you don't you'll probably get burn out over some of the many technical problems you'll encounter. I print because I enjoy it and have been printing for over 50 years so am also used to its foibles, but it took me years to get used to some of the digital printing challenges.

I really am not trying to discourage you from trying your hand at printing, but it's a lot better to start small and work up than to jump in feet first with a 44" printer.

[MHMG]

...So given the cost to out source the printing, raised the question if it would make a lot more sense to purchase a large format printer to have for this job and others to come.
Biggest question I have is average cost per foot or inch for paper and ink or any other expenses involved.
I know this can be dependent on what photos you print and what printer you are using. Just trying to get a general idea.
Also looking for recommendations on what printer would be best option for the occasional print job and maybe more often down the road.  Thank you

The economics of whether to bring your job in house or rely on an outside pro lab to deliver final product doesn't depend on what photos you print or what brand of printer you buy. It hinges on print size (you will never match 4x6 inch photofinishing lab prices, but 8x10 and larger is easy to beat) and your ability to invoke a fully color managed workflow so that you quickly get what you want in terms of print quality without having to waste many man-hours of labor and considerable ink and media costs figuring it all out. That said, if you have requisite printmaking skills, the cost of the printer, ink, and media will be recouped in just one job like you are describing. And you will make a profit... Economics favors the prepared printmaker when it comes to larger-scale prints!

Hence, your stated job easily justifies purchasing a wide format printer and bringing it in house, but only if you can quickly come up to speed with a fully color calibrated workflow. Nobody can make that calculus for you. I recommend you get some practice on a much smaller desktop printer before committing to larger WF printer if you are a total Newbie to digital printmaking. When you are getting DIY (do-it-yourself) results from a desktop inkjet printer that meet your image quality standards, then you are more than likely ready to commit to a wide carriage inkjet printer for the job you have described.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[langier]

Consider the time needed to get up to speed with printing, learning the idiosyncrasies of the printing process/printer, papers, profiles and custom profiles, maintenance, cleaning, finishing the prints, trimming, supplies, etc. Having the proper workspace and room is another aspect to consider. With large format printing, it's seldom as simple as just going out and buying a printer, unpacking it and plugging away at the project.

Mark gives some great advice as to color-managed workflow and that's one of the keys to the best output with the least waste and quality issues. Once you have a good foundation and practice, it starts becoming routine, easy and efficient but at the start it can overwhelm!

For me, it was a gradual process starting with a 17 inch sheet/roll printer and then making the jump to larger and larger printers. After the 24 inch printer, my last cabinets went in and when I went even larger, there was only countertops to store prints larger than 24x36 inches!

That first printer was intimidating and I didn't have everything in place at the start so my results stared hit-and-miss until I attended an ASMP presentation a couple of months after I got the thing with the late Bruce Frasier and learned the settings I needed to get the thing to work right. It's lots easier today, though!

In my experience and many others on this forum, it's seldom as easy as going out and buying a printer and having everything go perfectly out of the box, though if you are experienced, it still can be overwhelming when you get your first large format printer, especially where to put it and how to get it there.

My last printer was a "four-pallbearer" model that had to go down a flight of stair and then make a tight 90-degree bend to get in in the door. The previous 3 were much easier to move in and set-up, but still took at least two strong backs to manhandle to get them in my studio.

You may want to see if you can find someone close-by to visit and see how they work with their printer and ask them lots of questions or even finding someone to partner on this project so you don't pay to the nose by the print from a traditional lab.

For me, I enjoy printing still and though I haven't had a several-hundred print project in several years, still do smaller runs with the printer and it keeps on printing and printing.

Good luck with your project and keep us posted,

[Garnick]

Well, although I'd rather not add to the somewhat negative replies in this thread, I also have my opinions and unfortunately they do seem to follow most of the replies ahead of me.  Indeed there are many and various aspects of printing BIG prints, that can in one way or another be somewhat negative until you have mastered the art, which in itself can use up a lot of your time and $$$, especially if you are new to the printing community.  As I mentioned, I really don't have much to add since I agree with all that has been covered here already.  However, one aspect that caught me immediately and hasn't yet been mentioned refers back to the SIZE of the prints you would be handling in your perhaps first foray into the Wide-Format printer world.  And of course, as previously mentioned, if you do indeed have at least some degree of experience with at least a 17" quality printer, you will certainly have some knowledge that will spill over to the larger printer. 

One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is the fact that actually handling a 36x60" print is not necessarily something that you will be adept to at the start of the race. As a matter of fact, until you have mastered that hurdle you may have knocked a few down along the way. Certainly the space you will need to handle prints that size is not something to be overlooked.  Also the fact that roll paper tends to keep its ROLL long after it escapes the printer, and the only way to overcome that issue is to purchase a 44" De-Roller, which is of course yet another cost added to the ever growing list.  There have been some posts on this forum from those who have successfully manufactured their own version of the De-Roller at much more inviting cost, but in my opinion they could never do as good a job as the original.  I'm sure that opinion might be debunked by someone in the thread at some point, and it will be gladly be appreciated.  That's just the way we work here in the LuLa printing Forum.

Good luck and please keep us informed         

[night_scaper]

Well guy’s, first thank you so much for all the input. I have read everything you all have said. I guess given what I have figured as far as far as costs if I were to purchase the printer and materials needed just on this one job alone I would generate a significant profit. Still all things considered still have a lot of research to do before making the the jump

Next issue is definitely experience with large format printing. This scale I have none at all. Biggest I’ve worked with is 13x9 with the Canon Pixma Pro. I do have a friend that has some printing experience. He’s offered to help
I may see if I can find some resources as mentioned. Maybe a workshop or something. I do have a couple months to compete this project.
My wife and I are pretty savvy. We are both self taught on everything we’ve done and are pretty successful in other aspects of Photography/Lightroom/photoshop/graphic design. So why not take it to the next level.

As for work space we have a temperature/moisture controlled finished basement that can be used as a temporary work space and if things advance may consider renting a small office down the road.

I am also a business owner of a successful landscaping business of 18 years so am also mechanical and business inclined. I’ve never backed down from something because I didn’t know how to do it. I’ve always believed the best way to learn is by doing.

[Peter McLennan]

I say go for it.  I've taught myself large format printing and it's not that difficult, despite all the FUD spread here and elsewhere. 

Finished product handling is an issue, as mentioned.  I have a large vertical storage area in the form of a wall of styrofoam insulation panels. I use dressmaking pins to temporarily store the prints. This makes it easy to handle six-foot-wide images as they come off the printers. Once the prints are dry, storage is less of a problem. Just don't kink them.

LF HP printers have a built in spectrophotometer that virtually guarantees good colour, whatever media you're printing to.  The "colour management is paramount" people will consider this heresy, but for a large percentage of viewers and producers, it's all moot.  I had a high end, relentlessly colour calibrated monitor whose power supply failed and was replaced with a good display that's a quarter the cost.  My screen images and prints look just as good, despite my newfound lack of colour rigour.

For years I used a LF Epson printer and third party inks, despite warnings that they'd self destruct in a few years.  Sitting in my dentist's chair the other day, I reflected on my third party ink prints hanging on his walls, none of which exhibit visible changes in the fifteen years they've hung there.  The same story applies to the numerous prints on the sunny walls in my residence. 

Far more difficult than printing, IMO is the post-print production.  Mounting, framing, stretching (if canvas) and other procedures were for me far more demanding than producing satisfying, colourful, bill-paying imagery.

Besides, if you farm out your printing, you'll miss one of photography's greatest pleasures: pulling a BFP off the printer and saying "WOW!"

[mearussi]

Well guy’s, first thank you so much for all the input. I have read everything you all have said. I guess given what I have figured as far as far as costs if I were to purchase the printer and materials needed just on this one job alone I would generate a significant profit. Still all things considered still have a lot of research to do before making the the jump

Next issue is definitely experience with large format printing. This scale I have none at all. Biggest I’ve worked with is 13x9 with the Canon Pixma Pro. I do have a friend that has some printing experience. He’s offered to help
I may see if I can find some resources as mentioned. Maybe a workshop or something. I do have a couple months to compete this project.
My wife and I are pretty savvy. We are both self taught on everything we’ve done and are pretty successful in other aspects of Photography/Lightroom/photoshop/graphic design. So why not take it to the next level.

As for work space we have a temperature/moisture controlled finished basement that can be used as a temporary work space and if things advance may consider renting a small office down the road.

I am also a business owner of a successful landscaping business of 18 years so am also mechanical and business inclined. I’ve never backed down from something because I didn’t know how to do it. I’ve always believed the best way to learn is by doing.

Having a knowledgeable friend helps. Also if you say where you live someone here may be close enough to also help.

[Robcat]

That's quite a coup getting an order that large. I think we're all jealous that someone starting out selling has such success at the get-go 
Agree with the OPs comments. A point or two in addition. Do you have reason to believe you'll be selling more large prints (even one-offs)? If so, go for the printer and dive in. But if you think this 150 print job was more a one-time, manna from heaven thing, I'd be cautious about the time and effort required.
Also, are each of these sizes all of the SAME print? If so, it would be easier to get enough test prints from a commercial service to get the image exactly where you want it and let them deal with the factory work of printing, packing and shipping. Also should be able to cut a significant deal off standard retail.
Anyway, good on ya' and have fun either way.

[night_scaper]

Having a knowledgeable friend helps. Also if you say where you live someone here may be close enough to also help.

Going to update info. Thanks for the suggestion.

[night_scaper]

That's quite a coup getting an order that large. I think we're all jealous that someone starting out selling has such success at the get-go 
Agree with the OPs comments. A point or two in addition. Do you have reason to believe you'll be selling more large prints (even one-offs)? If so, go for the printer and dive in. But if you think this 150 print job was more a one-time, manna from heaven thing, I'd be cautious about the time and effort required.
Also, are each of these sizes all of the SAME print? If so, it would be easier to get enough test prints from a commercial service to get the image exactly where you want it and let them deal with the factory work of printing, packing and shipping. Also should be able to cut a significant deal off standard retail.
Anyway, good on ya' and have fun either way.

Definitely a really big job.Still working on some details for how many different images will be used.
 Not our first job and hopefully not the last We have sold other art prints in the past. But have paid to have them printed. Also have sold canvases as well. We live in Newport RI which is a very popular tourist spot. Plenty of photo opportunities here and sites to see. Definitely a area with a lot of photographers we have met and worked with on some social media outlets. So there is possibility to offer some printing to them as well.

[NAwlins_Contrarian]

It's not clear (at least to me) whether you and/or your wife have experience using a fully color-managed workflow, but if not, you could at least practice and experiment with that side of the process without much difficulty or expense. You wrote:

Next issue is definitely experience with large format printing. This scale I have none at all. Biggest I’ve worked with is 13x9 with the Canon Pixma Pro.

Do you calibrate and profile your monitor(s) with an X-Rite or Datacolor device? Do or did you print to this Canon Pixma Pro printer using a color-managed software? Do you use appropriate ICC profiles? Do you soft-proof? Do you try different rendering intents for each image? Do you still have this Canon printer? These are all things you could learn and experiment with for a modest investment. Even if you don't already have anything appropriate, you can buy a reasonable setup for under $500: X-Rite i1Display Pro Plus colorimeter ($299), Canon TS8320 printer ($99), and Qimage printing software (Windows, Ultimate version, $80, or Mac, One version, $60).

That won't educate you or give you experience on the large-format printing issues like roll-paper handling, differentiating factors among large printers, etc. But if you can produce an 8x10 on letter-size paper that matches what you saw on, or at least gives you what you expected from, your monitor, then your universe of learning curves would be substantially smaller.

[Terry_Kennedy]

Hello, I’m new to this forum so not sure if this has already been covered. US based photographer.
My wife and I do photography and recently landed a pretty large job which needs us to provide 50 prints at 36”x60” and 100 prints at 24”x36”

Congratulations! Hopefully this does not turn out to be the (probably made-up) Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times".

So given the cost to out source the printing, raised the question if it would make a lot more sense to purchase a large format printer to have for this job and others to come.
Biggest question I have is average cost per foot or inch for paper and ink or any other expenses involved.
I know this can be dependent on what photos you print and what printer you are using. Just trying to get a general idea.

See my samples down at the bottom of the page for some biggish prints run on an Epson SC-P10000 for ink and media costs, as well as the length of time needed to print them. All of the printers I'm aware of come with "starter inks" that are enough to charge the ink lines and head, hopefully run through any post-installation auto adjustments and (if you're lucky) make a few prints. I like the P10000 because the cartridges are ginormous (700ml) and seem well-priced for the amount of ink you get, compared to the smaller cartridges from both Epson and other brands.

Also looking for recommendations on what printer would be best option for the occasional print job and maybe more often down the road.  Thank you

Different people here prefer different printers. I've been using Epson since the original Stylus Pro 9000 20 years ago, after having been burned badly on an HP. Others will have different experiences.

If you are printing 50 (or even 25) of the same image, I'd suggest outsourcing it and not dealing with learning about the care and feeding of large-format printers. On the other hand, if there are many different images, the cost and effort of getting proofs and re-doing the images if you aren't happy may tip the scales toward buying your own printer. As someone else mentioned, simply dealing with getting the physical print out of the printer's catch basket without damaging it is a bit of an art. 36" and 24" will be easier than 44", though. Many of my print jobs are 44" x 10' or longer.

Others have mentioned color calibration, etc. While important, printers come with pretty good canned profiles, at least for the printer manufacturer's papers. Other paper manufacturers may or may not supply custom profiles, or simply tell you to set the printer for a roughly-equivalent manufacturer's paper. If you aren't trying to match an existing print, you have a little more leeway - does it look good to you (particularly as since you're the photographers, you know what your intent was)?

Here's 2 sample images (much reduced), each with its printing costs as calculated by the Epson accounting utility. Of course, this doesn't show your time in setting up the job and actually dealing with the output, nor with any "do-overs" for experimentation or because you scratched the print when taking it out of the catch basket.

[Panagiotis]

Of course, this doesn't show your time in setting up the job and actually dealing with the output, nor with any "do-overs" for experimentation or because you scratched the print when taking it out of the catch basket.

I would like to add also that it doesn't show the ink used for maintenance. Depending on the usage (if the printer isn't used much) this might be a considerable amount per print.

[dgberg]

Our materials (Paper/canvas/ink) are averaging 15% of our selling price. It has gone up to as much as 20% when using a more costly paper.
Where the problems come in is when you start printing for others. Many do overs. You would think it would not be an issue but 1 out of 20 images gets re printed.
Prints too dark is the #1 headache. Between 50 and 75% of the images sent to us are too dark.
All these folks say it looks good on their monitor and it is calibrated but as soon as I see that histogram way left I know how it is going to print..
They insist I print as is. Client finally looks at it and says it is too dark, duh!
We have taken the attitude that if it looks dark it will print dark and since I started addressing this issue at my end it is pretty well resolved.
I wish I could see how these people are calibrating their monitors. It is just so time consuming to go back and forth with someone set in their ways. I just adjust it on my own now.
Printing just for yourself will be so much easier, but once the word gets out you have a wide format printer the requests will start coming in.
For me printing is more satisfying than the photography end, I just love it.

[tsjanik]

..............I wish I could see how these people are calibrating their monitors. It is just so time consuming to go back and forth with someone set in their ways. I just adjust it on my own...…………...

Dan:  It may not be the calibration, but rather the background used for viewing the print on a monitor.   A tip I received from Charlie Cramer is to use a white background.  The  default background in PS is dark, making an image appear lighter and more pleasing on a screen.  Changing to white has helped me avoid prints that are surprisingly dark.

Tom

[Ferp]

I wish I could see how these people are calibrating their monitors. It is just so time consuming to go back and forth with someone set in their ways. I just adjust it on my own now.

Amen. I only print for a very select number of people, and even then I experienced this. I've had to look at their monitors to be certain of what they wanted. Fortunately they all now have calibrated monitors, and the fussier of them can soft-proof with my custom ICCs. I wouldn't be prepared to print for anyone where I couldn't be confident of their monitor settings. 

Re a LF printer, you'd think that those who want a large print would have this sort of thing under control, but it sounds like that's not the case.