Extreme Politics

[JoeKitchen]

Maybe because you're not directly involved?

Brexit Costs Close To Matching Britain’s Total EU Contributions
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/01/21/brexit-costs-close-to-matching-britains-total-eu-contributions-infographic/

Regardless if I am involved or not, it is pretty easy to see the elitist outrage and end of the world warnings that have not happened. 

From an outsider there are a few obvious truths about Brexit.  1. The elitist never thought it could happen and held the referendum as a way to stick their tongues out at the Tories after they were sure to loose.  2.  After the Tories won the vote, with the largest voter turn out ever, they decided to try and overturn the people's choice by delaying, delaying, delaying, and refusing to follow the vote. 

The fact that a first world country with a well developed democracy would do this, says some pretty horible things for democracy.  Almost like elected officals could care less about what the people think and do what they want, as if they were dictators. 

3.  Then, the doom and gloom predicted by the elitists never materialized, which only strengthened the Tories.  4.  The elitists tried to insist that the referendum was false, and, upon an offer for another vote, claimed that would be illegitimate, thus destroying their case.  And 5.  after too much delaying and pandering a final referendum was called by Boris Johnson on parliament where the Tories ran primarily on Breixt and won in a landslide. 

It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square.  If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent.  Good or bad, this is what was voted for.  It's about time for it to be implemented. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

For those who are unclear about the process forward (yes, there is an 11 month process ahead):

After Brexit Day, Britain still has to work out its future relationship with the E.U.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCS7i5A6dA

Current estimates are that 11 months are not enough to make (according to the Financial Times) some 750 new international deals that were agreed upon, also on the UK's behalf, by "Europe". It takes time to untangle some 40 years of cooperation ...

If not achieved in time, it might yet result in a hard break, with many unresolved issues (and negative effects).

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Regardless if I am involved or not, it is pretty easy to see the elitist outrage and end of the world warnings that have not happened.

I hope for my UK friends that you are right, but I'm not optimistic (as a pragmatic person). It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any. It wiil become an uphill battle all the way (and the UK is somewhat outnumbered on virtually all fronts).
   

[JoeKitchen]

I hope for my UK friends that you are right, but I'm not optimistic (as a pragmatic person). It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any. It wiil become an uphill battle all the way (and the UK is somewhat outnumbered on virtually all fronts).
 

That's fine.  It's what they elected, so give it to them. 

Last I checked though, London was still a major financial center of the Europe, second only to Zürich.  To add to that, Switzerland is doing pretty good for itself being outside of the EU. 

I very much doubt Britain is in for a shit storm like so many have predicted would be the case already. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

On my to-do list:

[LesPalenik]

On my to-do list:

While doing that, you should add a few more crosses to that map

[Jeremy Roussak]

Yes, pay no attention to any sources of information. Just close your eyes and dream whichever reality you prefer.

You have completely missed my point. Rob was writing of his proposed return to the UK and what he perceived as national mood, derived from newspapers. I, who live here, was indicating that those sources of information do not, for very obvious reasons, correlate with the reality of the national mood. Very few people are interested in politics at all, still less in its subsidiary, Brexit.

If you lived here, rather than pontificating from elsewhere, you'd understand.

Jeremy

[KLaban]

On my to-do list:

Every cloud has a silver lining.

;-)

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

.. what he perceived as national mood, derived from newspapers. I, who live here, was indicating that those sources of information do not, for very obvious reasons, correlate with the reality of the national mood...

If you lived here, rather than pontificating from elsewhere, you'd understand.

Bernard, are you listening? 

[Rob C]

Regardless if I am involved or not, it is pretty easy to see the elitist outrage and end of the world warnings that have not happened. 

From an outsider there are a few obvious truths about Brexit. 1. The elitist never thought it could happen and held the referendum as a way to stick their tongues out at the Tories after they were sure to loose. 2.  After the Tories won the vote, with the largest voter turn out ever, they decided to try and overturn the people's choice by delaying, delaying, delaying, and refusing to follow the vote. 

The fact that a first world country with a well developed democracy would do this, says some pretty horible things for democracy.  Almost like elected officals could care less about what the people think and do what they want, as if they were dictators. 

3.  Then, the doom and gloom predicted by the elitists never materialized, which only strengthened the Tories. 4.  The elitists tried to insist that the referendum was false, and, upon an offer for another vote, claimed that would be illegitimate, thus destroying their case.  And 5.  after too much delaying and pandering a final referendum was called by Boris Johnson on parliament where the Tories ran primarily on Breixt and won in a landslide. 

It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square.  If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent.  Good or bad, this is what was voted for.  It's about time for it to be implemented.

1. What are you talking about? Mr Cameron was a Tory and from an elite. Are you suggesting he was wanting to stick his tongue out at himself? He was, in fact, a bright guy who made a cardinal error: he forgot that it is impossible to overrate the stupidity of people.

2. Which vote? Do you confuse the Referendum with a Tory vote? It was Parliament, which contains representatives of many parties, that did not like the type of deal that was being made; by nature they did not appreciate a nation voting for self-immolation. They all have constituents back in the woods, folks who will turn on them in wrath when their factory closes and the Japs and Germans retreat to better circumstances. Buy hey, when it happens, it won't, of couse, be their fault: it will be toted as "Europe punishing them for leaving" and not that they themselves have insisted in putting themselves out of the loop and building barriers to free trade.

3. You have to decide about elitists: do you mean Conservatives, do you mean Remainers? If you mean the latter, then that makes 48% of us Brits elite. Cool! Bet you envy that, you with your nation of red necks and blue collars! ;-) Joke! Joke! ;-)

And did you imagine that national economic disaster is always visible overnight? It certainly can be in one-man businesses, but on the grander scale, things are different. Changes in fortune take place on the longer term, as business starts to slow down, move from one location to another, which in a global economy is easy to do. For many, Brexit was never going to happen until it did: that was what the anger over "uncertainty" was all about: folks didn't know whether to remain active in Britain or plan their retreat, hire people or lose them.

4. I do not recall a second referendum ever being offered. Fact is, the only referendum was supposed to be a consultation, not a decision for action; that was something quickly forgotten and changed into a mandate for immediate implementation.

5. See above: there was no second referendum. There was a general election.

"It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square.  If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent.  Good or bad, this is what was voted for.  It's about time for it to be implemented."

So, you believe that if somebody decides to go driving in the wrong direction on the fast lane of the motorway we should defend their right to do so, regardless of the mass pile-up that will inevitably affect everyone else on the road at that time? You have got to be out of your head, as was that tiny majority of Brits doing metaphorically exacly that on that fateful day.

Rob

[Rob C]

You have completely missed my point. Rob was writing of his proposed return to the UK and what he perceived as national mood, derived from newspapers. I, who live here, was indicating that those sources of information do not, for very obvious reasons, correlate with the reality of the national mood. Very few people are interested in politics at all, still less in its subsidiary, Brexit.

If you lived here, rather than pontificating from elsewhere, you'd understand.

Jeremy

I understood your post, Jeremy, even if I don't quite accept the accuaracy of the conclusion: in Scotland, at least, Brexit is on everyone's mind, if only because it underlines again just how powerless Scotland feels as an appendage of the greater England. Whether breaking that relationship makes any sense is another matter entirely: I see it as another example of emotional Brexit with the difference that if Scotland understood the dangers of Brexit, it may not see the same dangers closer to home, which could be a great pity.

Returning or not returning, actually, will depend on my ability to sell my home at a reasonable price. The move is really all about saving the kids from a tax situation here that will be worse for them than if I die in Scotland, with no property here. Which is fair enough: Spain is entitled to arrange its taxation rules as it wants them.

My photographic ambitions are now just that: hopes and unrealistic wishful thinking of rocking and rolling again in a world long gone. The main motivation it about the kids. I feel I owe them that at the very least. Love is strong medicine.

;-)

Rob

[Manoli]

From an outsider there are a few obvious truths about Brexit. [...]

This post is so ill-informed, factually both misguided and simply incorrect, that I'd be surprised anyone would, three years on, still be willing to waste any more time and effort in discussion.

The elitist never thought it could happen ...

Quoting Ian McEwan, today,

"  If 16 million remainers are an elite, then we may rejoice that the UK is a model of meritocracy. "

[Alan Klein]

I hope for my UK friends that you are right, but I'm not optimistic (as a pragmatic person). It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any. It wiil become an uphill battle all the way (and the UK is somewhat outnumbered on virtually all fronts).
   

I don;t think Europe wants to cut its nose off to spite its face.  Sure, there will be lots of bumps in the road.  But Mercedes still wants to sell cars to the Brits.  Trade is a two-way street.  Accommodations will have to be made on both sides.  I believe the Chunnel trains run both ways.

[JoeKitchen]

This post is so ill-informed, factually both misguided and simply incorrect, that I'd be surprised anyone would, three years on, still be willing to waste any more time and effort in discussion.


Quoting Ian McEwan, today,

"  If 16 million remainers are an elite, then we may rejoice that the UK is a model of meritocracy. "

This is the impression that we get over here across the pond, and after 3 years of writing any post on any platform, why would anyone, including the author, want to continue discussing it? 

[RSL]

It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any.

Seems there's a fair chance it won't be long before there'll be no EU.

[JoeKitchen]

1. What are you talking about? Mr Cameron was a Tory and from an elite. Are you suggesting he was wanting to stick his tongue out at himself? He was, in fact, a bright guy who made a cardinal error: he forgot that it is impossible to overrate the stupidity of people.

2. Which vote? Do you confuse the Referendum with a Tory vote? It was Parliament, which contains representatives of many parties, that did not like the type of deal that was being made; by nature they did not appreciate a nation voting for self-immolation. They all have constituents back in the woods, folks who will turn on them in wrath when their factory closes and the Japs and Germans retreat to better circumstances. Buy hey, when it happens, it won't, of couse, be their fault: it will be toted as "Europe punishing them for leaving" and not that they themselves have insisted in putting themselves out of the loop and building barriers to free trade.

3. You have to decide about elitists: do you mean Conservatives, do you mean Remainers? If you mean the latter, then that makes 48% of us Brits elite. Cool! Bet you envy that, you with your nation of red necks and blue collars! ;-) Joke! Joke! ;-)

And did you imagine that national economic disaster is always visible overnight? It certainly can be in one-man businesses, but on the grander scale, things are different. Changes in fortune take place on the longer term, as business starts to slow down, move from one location to another, which in a global economy is easy to do. For many, Brexit was never going to happen until it did: that was what the anger over "uncertainty" was all about: folks didn't know whether to remain active in Britain or plan their retreat, hire people or lose them.

4. I do not recall a second referendum ever being offered. Fact is, the only referendum was supposed to be a consultation, not a decision for action; that was something quickly forgotten and changed into a mandate for immediate implementation.

5. See above: there was no second referendum. There was a general election.

"It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square.  If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent.  Good or bad, this is what was voted for.  It's about time for it to be implemented."

So, you believe that if somebody decides to go driving in the wrong direction on the fast lane of the motorway we should defend their right to do so, regardless of the mass pile-up that will inevitably affect everyone else on the road at that time? You have got to be out of your head, as was that tiny majority of Brits doing metaphorically exacly that on that fateful day.

Rob

I will give you that there are plenty of elites of both kind, but what I was talking about was those delaying just to try and out last public sentiment.  When I said the 2nd referendum, I was talking about the recent general election and got the wording wrong. 

Like it or not, the vote was to leave with it being backed up by the recent Tory landslide.  This is how democracy works, and it is time to implement what was voted for.  If not, how can you, or any other Brit for that matter, ever critique any country on its governance? 

You cant, because if this was not implemented, you would be telling the world that it is okay not to listen the public.  And it would be a sad day for democracy. 

Last, on your driving example, if one motorist in Britain decided to start driving on the right, of course that would be disastrous.  But if the majority (and it was the majority) of motorists elected to start driving on the right (like the rest of the world), it would be perfectly legitimate, and those driving on the left would now be in the wrong. 

[Alan Klein]

Seems there's a fair chance it won't be long before there'll be no EU.

Good point Russ.  I've been predicting EU collapse for 5 years.  As long as EU governance includes interfering in individual country's political decisions, the EU is doomed. People want control of their own country and lives.  They should back off and keep it as a trade block only like USMCA formerly NAFTA. Mexico, America and Canada have great trade relations, open borders, and smoothe relations across the spectrum.  But there's no central governance telling all three how their people have to live.  That's determined by separate laws in each country.  The Europeans would do themselves a favor if the used USMCA has a guide.

[LesPalenik]

Alan,

I agree with you to some degree, but EU rules are more complex and encompassing than NAFTA. For example, if you are a member of one EU state, you can get easily medical care in another country, you don't need to show your passport at the border, you can bring more than one bottle of wine across the border, and you can work in another country without any special permits.   

[Alan Klein]

Alan,

I agree with you to some degree, but EU rules are more complex and encompassing than NAFTA. For example, if you are a member of one EU state, you can get easily medical care in another country, you don't need to show your passport at the border, you can bring more than one bottle of wine across the border, and you can work in another country without any special permits.   

I understand.  But it's gone too far.  The gnomes in charge of the EU decided to include rules that go to the heart of a people deciding how they want to live.  Unelected bureaucrats deciding rules that are better left to each country's electorate, such as immigration.  America and Canada for example have different medical systems.  But that doesn;t interfere with travel, trade, security, and other things of common interest between our two nations.  But in other areas. you Canadians run your country and we run ours.  The Brits felt they lost control of their own nation, hence Brexit.  If Britain makes a success of Brexit, other countries in the EU will go the same way.  Those people will feel that they're also giving up their vote to foreigners and want to exit too.  The idea of a European Federal Nation doesn't work.  The dreamers are kidding themselves.  It works in America because we all speak a common language and have a common history.  We all bled together creating America.  Europe is not the same. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

"Nissan drafts plan to double down on UK under hard Brexit"

https://www.ft.com/content/c4f0d1e2-4442-11ea-a43a-c4b328d9061c?fbclid=IwAR0j1OSzwWuVdFds-nmTZE0PiA1qCZDjhNe5kR_n0aZtQ78cI1g6hwqZXog