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Author Topic: Extreme Politics  (Read 9277 times)

Rob C

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Extreme Politics
« on: January 30, 2020, 02:55:41 pm »

The last night I go to bed as a European. Tomorrow night I do the same thing as just another expat Brit out on the margins. Soon, it may be as just another tiny, expat Scot. To think I had the right to wander a continent without a concern in my mind, and somebody threw it all away for me.

That annoys the hell out of me; it was neither of my doing nor of my choosing. Ain't modern politics wunnerful...

Rob
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 02:58:52 pm by Rob C »
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John Camp

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 04:18:02 pm »

The last night I go to bed as a European. Tomorrow night I do the same thing as just another expat Brit out on the margins. Soon, it may be as just another tiny, expat Scot. To think I had the right to wander a continent without a concern in my mind, and somebody threw it all away for me.

That annoys the hell out of me; it was neither of my doing nor of my choosing. Ain't modern politics wunnerful...

Rob

Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 04:21:27 pm »

Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)

Wasn't that suppose to happen a couple of years ago after voting to leave? 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 04:34:10 pm by JoeKitchen »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2020, 04:36:21 pm »

Actually, today I read a report in Spiegel that UK economy is doing quite well, although at a lower pace than before 2016.

translated:
Quote
The UK labor market has been developing positively since 2016. Unemployment has fallen and the UK economy has even created many new jobs in the past three years.

https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/brexit-bilanz-der-milliardenschaden-den-die-briten-kaum-spueren-a-06014cd7-4924-4489-962d-efc78bb796a3
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2020, 05:15:33 pm »

As it takes time for economies to grow, so it takes time to tank.

I believe that until it actually happened, people didn't think that Brexit would. Anyway, the growth prospect has been cut back to 1 point something. For a service economy, it seems strange to have put the financial centre into the straightjacket that it has, though I guess those guys will just move and continue along as if nothing much has happened.

That said, car production has plummeted again, though it could be factors beyond Brexit.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2020, 05:23:53 pm »

Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)


God no! There are enough religious problems contained within the northern Ireland and within Scotland, too, all developed from the feud between Protestants and Catholics. Pretty much the western Sunni v Shiite model, as it were. It's messy enough when in a single country, expanded into an alliance of like minds cultures, it would be very explosive and unstable but on a greater scale than when isolated a little bit. Think of it as those petrol tanks with foam separation.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2020, 09:25:29 pm »

Rob,

There's a book you might enjoy (although enjoy may not be exactly the right word). The title is "Enlightenment 2.0", by a U of Toronto philosophy professor named Joseph Heath. He addresses precisely this thread's topic, Extreme Politics. He comes at it from a historic and philosophical point of view, not a lot of current events in it. I am about to read it again.

He also maintains a blog in which he receives lots of contributions from others (http://induecourse.ca), although activity on it has decreased markedly in the last year or two. There is a bit of Canadian content that may not be of much interest to you, but most of the discussion is more general.

Speculation on the UK economy based on what happened today or what will happen next week is beside the point. These are long-term strategic decisions and their outcomes won't be known for years. In the meantime, I hope that people in your situation don't get caught up in some bureaucratic crossfire that screws up your pension, health or residency benefits. I hear from one of those "document leaks" we hear about in the news that Panama may be a good place in which to disappear, should the need arise.

And since I'm recommending books, I hear that John Le Carré's latest (Agent Running in the Field) does a fun job of skewering the Brexit side. I am on a wait list for it from my library. From here in Ottawa, I can say that there is no one I know who understands why the UK wanted to leave the European community in the first place. I've read many online comments from people who don't strike me as knowing anything much about it (on this forum especially), and one theme that came up was the idea of British sovereignty being a motivation. I have never heard anyone describe why that isn't true of every other country in the union. From what I can tell, fierce independence is a pretty widespread phenomenon. But I'm sure there's an explanation.

Best of luck.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2020, 11:09:20 pm »

Rob,

There's a book you might enjoy (although enjoy may not be exactly the right word). The title is "Enlightenment 2.0", by a U of Toronto philosophy professor named Joseph Heath. He addresses precisely this thread's topic, Extreme Politics. He comes at it from a historic and philosophical point of view, not a lot of current events in it. I am about to read it again.

He also maintains a blog in which he receives lots of contributions from others (http://induecourse.ca), although activity on it has decreased markedly in the last year or two. There is a bit of Canadian content that may not be of much interest to you, but most of the discussion is more general.

Speculation on the UK economy based on what happened today or what will happen next week is beside the point. These are long-term strategic decisions and their outcomes won't be known for years. In the meantime, I hope that people in your situation don't get caught up in some bureaucratic crossfire that screws up your pension, health or residency benefits. I hear from one of those "document leaks" we hear about in the news that Panama may be a good place in which to disappear, should the need arise.

And since I'm recommending books, I hear that John Le Carré's latest (Agent Running in the Field) does a fun job of skewering the Brexit side. I am on a wait list for it from my library. From here in Ottawa, I can say that there is no one I know who understands why the UK wanted to leave the European community in the first place. I've read many online comments from people who don't strike me as knowing anything much about it (on this forum especially), and one theme that came up was the idea of British sovereignty being a motivation. I have never heard anyone describe why that isn't true of every other country in the union. From what I can tell, fierce independence is a pretty widespread phenomenon. But I'm sure there's an explanation.

Best of luck.

Why did Quebec want independence?

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2020, 03:58:41 am »

Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)

That language, even if it did not betray an ignorance of the fact that Scots are British, is unacceptable.

Jeremy
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2020, 04:15:08 am »

Why, Robert? To escape the clutches of the proto-totalitarian bureaucratic contraption.

Chairman Bill

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2020, 06:37:25 am »

Why, Robert? To escape the clutches of the proto-totalitarian bureaucratic contraption.

Ha ha ha. I love it. It's the way you tell 'em. Hilarious.


Oh, and Rob, it means we can have bendy bananas and blue passports. Surely that's something to celebrate :-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2020, 09:19:05 am »

So much for the impeding doom and gloom:

Rob C

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2020, 09:38:14 am »

So much for the impeding doom and gloom:

Yeah, right, try changing your pound in Spain and see what it gets you, I was in the bank this morning.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2020, 10:14:44 am »

That language, even if it did not betray an ignorance of the fact that Scots are British, is unacceptable.

Jeremy

I was being consoled today at lunch over my vanishing European identity, and also in a passing street conversation with a plumber's merchant I have known for a long time (he's a rock 'n' roll fan too; see how it makes friends and unites people across the world?). They do not seem to observe this as another manifestation of perfidious Albion at play, but far more as a cunning, long-term American ploy to reduce the three global superpowers - the US, China and Europe - to two, via the gradual dismantling of Europe; if anything, they view Brexit with incomprehension, and see Britain embrace a position tantamount to industrial suicide for itself; they wish us well and extend their sympathy. Funny how Russia sees Europe from exactly that same, long-term perspective; divide and conquer.

It's an example of where the cunning powers think years ahead, whereas the dumb ones can't see beyond the next election.

Regarding the Scots as Brits: I don't think I know or knew any Scot who felt that way. Indeed, they are all aware of the legality of the situation, but at gut level, no way do they tend to feel British. It's a concept too removed from the quotidian experience, both culturally, economically as politically.

Some like to quote the result of the last Scottish Independence referendum as some form of proof of Britishness: I'm sorry, it was proof of fiscal understanding, and nothing more.

In fact, it's the apparent inability of the English to understand that the rest of Britain is not England that rankles, and drives nations apart. It's ironic that England understands that sentiment very clearly where it applies to itself, hence voting to quit Europe, but is blind to the fact re. Scottish sentiments. Which, I think, shows that Scotland is able to feel its own sense of nationality, but also appreciate and understand the value of being part of a far greater whole, i.e. Europe.

Regarding John's actual comment: I would distance myself from saying screw the English en masse, simply because in the final analysis, only three percent of them made the critical part of the call to go. That leaves forty-eight percent as pretty clear-sighted and certainly sane.

As for the US/UK trade dream, dream on. Since when did the supplicant call the shots?

Rob

kers

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2020, 10:57:38 am »

So much for the impeding doom and gloom:
I guess you also prefer a stronger dollar...Is that really good for the export?

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kers

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2020, 11:02:10 am »

So now the UK has to set its own standards... but has to comply with those of the EU and the US at the same time...

I read this whole brexit costed the UK already 170miljard $
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k?srnd=premium-europe...

Now the good news...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2020, 12:01:58 pm »

A rich Britain and a rich EUrope is good for America as America is for you.  We're trading partners.  When things are good, we all do good.  A rising tide lifts all boats.  Remember 2008/2009.  We all suffered.  THis isn't a zero sum game.  That doesn;t mean we aren't competitors in many areas.  But competition doesn;t in itself mean anything bad.  It makes  stronger.  No one in America wants to see Britain hurt.  The sooner they can get their act together, the better it will be for them and everyone else. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2020, 12:53:57 pm »

A rich Britain and a rich EUrope is good for America as America is for you.  We're trading partners.  When things are good, we all do good.  A rising tide lifts all boats.  Remember 2008/2009.  We all suffered.  THis isn't a zero sum game.  That doesn;t mean we aren't competitors in many areas.  But competition doesn;t in itself mean anything bad.  It makes  stronger.  No one in America wants to see Britain hurt.  The sooner they can get their act together, the better it will be for them and everyone else.

Already had that.
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2020, 02:17:58 pm »

Already had that.

Already had it and it was flawed at the get go.

Bringing up 2008 only points up how flawed, too, were the financial organs that are now supposed to be vitalising some new era of plenty.

Boris needs to think of Japan, of China, of Mexico and not least of all of Canada if he seriously thinks of making deals with Trump, because in the new America it's Trump and not the nation with which countries find themselves embroiled. Those countries represent a cautionary tale of what's on offer to negotiating "partners". You get chewed up.

I watched a few seconds of film where a guy and gal remove the Union Jack from its stand amongst the others. It was like a death in the family. It will return to haunt this generation and deplete the potential of the future ones.

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme Politics
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2020, 02:57:15 pm »

You can't blame America fir your economic problems.  It's an inside job.
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