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Author Topic: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location  (Read 2633 times)

Terry_Kennedy

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Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2020, 10:57:05 pm »

Epson heads last the life of the machine - unless they get a really bad clog. If you do kill an Epson head with a clog, it's not worth replacing on a 24" printer, and the math isn't great even on a 44" printer (it's about a $2000 job that involves a service call - it might be even more expensive in Alaska) - a new 24" printer is often under $2500 with a full set of new ink and a warranty, while a new 44" is about $3500 with ink and warranty. It's only really worth it on a $10,000 60" machine.

I haven't paid more than $500 for an Epson P10000 (yes, the printer, not the ink). The last one I got was $414 (Proof). At that price I pick them up for the ink in them and potentally usable spare parts. However, this printer was perfectly functional. It was just past its extended warranty (before the top-secret additional 2 years for a total of 5 years deal came out) and the large commercial shop it came from didn't want to risk the downtime and unpredictable repair costs so they just bought a new one. They had 3 P10Ks running jobs there when I went to pick up this one. I wouldn't recommend these "scavenger hunt" printers for companies that need to be able to do a lot of prints on a tight deadline, but for someone who does occasional printing and doesn't mind the occasional DIY repair, you can end up with a LOT of printer for not much money.
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Christopher

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How does the z9 secure the paper with rolls and are star marks a problem?
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Christopher Hauser
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PeterAit

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While I can't help on your printer choice I'd strongly suggest you set up your computer to run a test print weekly or even more (mine prints daily).  I was away for 6 weeks last year and had a friend come in and run a test print pattern once a week but since then I found that Qimage Ultimage can be set up to run one automatically and it's now done that over several 2 week trips.  Qimage is now available for Mac as well as Win and is worth it for that alone IMO.

It's beyond me why the printer makers do not build this into the printer.
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Peter

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MHMG

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It's beyond me why the printer makers do not build this into the printer.

HP does, and to a lesser extent Canon on their pro level printers. My HP Z9 and my HP Z3200 come out of sleep, shoot a little ink once or twice a day (I've never timed it but it is daily), and then they go back to sleep. The minor price one pays is a little electricity used in sleep mode rather than full shut down. My Canon Pro-1000 and Pro-4000 also stay maintained, but don't do a daily routine. They seem to run a variable sequence right as one sends the first print file to the printer, and they also have longer and rather obtuse timing/cleaning cycles initiated by the first print in the printing session, which if left idle for many days will generate a much bigger maintenance cycle than my HP printers. That suggests daily printing might hold the ink wastage down, but again, its so obtuse that I don't think anyone has really sorted out the precise relationship between use or lack thereof and the amount of cleaning that gets automatically performed by the Canon printers.  That said, however they do it, both the Canons and the Hp Z's are ready to print when I am.

I have only one desktop Epson printer, the Surecolor P600, and it's classic Epson. The very first thing I have to do before even thinking about printing on it is to run a nozzle check...and that more often than not leads to a user induced cleaning cycle to clear a few problems in the check pattern. To be fair, I suspect the ink wasting is higher on the prosumer Canon Pro-1000 than on the Epson P600 and that even includes the occasional Epson PK/MK ink swapping. It's my labor time to get the P600 back up and running that I really don't like. I don't really factor in the wasted ink, although that's never desirable, either.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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MHMG

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How does the z9 secure the paper with rolls and are star marks a problem?

I wish I could answer that. I haven't seen star wheel marks, but I've been running into definite roll feed issues relating to core set on thicker fine art papers as they reach closer to the end of roll. I have the Z9+ dual roll model, and my issue has been with fine art media in both roll 1 and roll 2 positions. Feed problems start occurring as the media gets used up about 3/4 of the way into the roll. So, printing goes smoothly until that last quarter of the roll is now starting to get used.  Also, I'm working mainly with 24 inch rolls for the mean time as I get more familiar with the printer, so I don't know whether the problems I'm facing are there on wider media. Perhaps with more surface area to grab onto, the problem I'm facing might not happen. The symptom is that once the core set (paper curl) gets strong enough, the paper slips a little just as the printing starts. The print otherwise runs fine, so it's not slipping when enough paper is fully engaged under the forward star wheels that follow the printhead location, but once that job is cut, the printer loses track of where the paper is due to that initial slight slippage, and it then winds the roll too far back, thus causing the roll to be ejected. One needs to reload the roll at that point. Unwinding and decurling several feet of the roll before reloading eliminates the issue until once again the printer starts running into more paper curl resistance on the remaining footage. Frustrating, but at least this is one crude work around. I'm seeking a better solution for sure

I've trying some other work arounds, however, as the problem only occurs when one is fairly far into a new roll, it's time consuming experimentation. I'm working with HP tech support at this time to try to resolve the issue.  What I really don't know is whether this is a problem with my specific printer unit or whether it's a basic design issue with the Z9dr model. HP tech support doesn't appear to have much experience with thicker fine art media, so it's a bit of the blind leading the blind unfortunately.  I also don't know whether the single roll unit would have the issues I'm having with the dual roll model.

Other than that :), I love this printer, so I will keep folks posted as my roll feed issue gets resolved (or not). Ironically, because cut sheet is flat or can be de-curled by the enduser right before use, it feeds just fine. Print quality is superb.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 02:29:51 pm by MHMG »
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Panagiotis

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... My Canon Pro-1000 and Pro-4000 also stay maintained, but don't do a daily routine. They seem to run a variable sequence right as one sends the first print file to the printer, and they also have longer and rather obtuse timing/cleaning cycles initiated by the first print in the printing session, which if left idle for many days will generate a much bigger maintenance cycle than my HP printers....

I also have these two printers (PRO-1000 and PRO-4000) and your description of the maintenance procedure is right except that I recently witnessed the 4000 waking up and performing a long cleaning cycle by its own, without me sending first a print job. I was late in my studio and it surprised me.
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Ernst Dinkla

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I wish I could answer that. I haven't seen star wheel marks, but I've been running into definite roll feed issues relating to core set on thicker fine art papers as they reach closer to the end of roll. I have the Z9+ dual roll model, and my issue has been with fine art media in both roll 1 and roll 2 positions. Feed problems start occurring as the media gets used up about 3/4 of the way into the roll. So, printing goes smoothly until that last quarter of the roll is now starting to get used.  Also, I'm working mainly with 24 inch rolls for the mean time as I get more familiar with the printer, so I don't know whether the problems I'm facing are there on wider media. Perhaps with more surface area to grab onto, the problem I'm facing might not happen. The symptom is that once the core set (paper curl) gets strong enough, the paper slips a little just as the printing starts. The print otherwise runs fine, so it's not slipping when enough paper is fully engaged under the forward star wheels that follow the printhead location, but once that job is cut, the printer loses track of where the paper is due to that initial slight slippage, and it then winds the roll too far back, thus causing the roll to be ejected. One needs to reload the roll at that point. Unwinding and decurling several feet of the roll before reloading eliminates the issue until once again the printer starts running into more paper curl resistance on the remaining footage. Frustrating, but at least this is one crude work around. I'm seeking a better solution for sure

I've trying some other work arounds, however, as the problem only occurs when one is fairly far into a new roll, it's time consuming experimentation. I'm working with HP tech support at this time to try to resolve the issue.  What I really don't know is whether this is a problem with my specific printer unit or whether it's a basic design issue with the Z9dr model. HP tech support doesn't appear to have much experience with thicker fine art media, so it's a bit of the blind leading the blind unfortunately.  I also don't know whether the single roll unit would have the issues I'm having with the dual roll model.


cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Lately I experienced the slipping of the media transport axle at the leading edge more often on my 11.5 year Z3200-PS. German Etching especially. It is not just the curl getting more pronounced towards the core of the roll but also the age of the paper roll I think. It is harder to unroll an older roll. Could be that the transport axle texture is affected by wear so less friction created on the paper. Other cause could be the springs on the tensioners weakening + the tensioners rollers having some friction on their own tiny axles. German Etching being an Alpha Cellulose paper probably has shorter fibers than a cotton based paper, I see wear towards the edge at the underside of the paper when it did not transport well.  36 and 44" rolls is what I use.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

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MHMG

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Lately I experienced the slipping of the media transport axle at the leading edge more often on my 11.5 year Z3200-PS. German Etching especially. It is not just the curl getting more pronounced towards the core of the roll but also the age of the paper roll I think. It is harder to unroll an older roll. Could be that the transport axle texture is affected by wear so less friction created on the paper. Other cause could be the springs on the tensioners weakening + the tensioners rollers having some friction on their own tiny axles. German Etching being an Alpha Cellulose paper probably has shorter fibers than a cotton based paper, I see wear towards the edge at the underside of the paper when it did not transport well.  36 and 44" rolls is what I use.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

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SOLI  AIR
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Thanks for those insights, Ernst. As far as I know the Z9 delivered to me is not a refurb. It's new out of the box, but it was shipped by HP management from Barcelona rather than delivered from a U.S.A. dealer. It may be older stock thus perhaps an early production unit, and I'm beginning to suspect the roll feed problems I'm having are specific to  my printer unit... as you suggest. probably something with the tensioning of the feed rollers. In any case, I have not been able to feed any fine art roll media (all purchased recently) without running into unwanted roll unloads that the printer hardware/software doesn't know is happening. That said, no problems yet with a roll of RC photo media, but its' a 100 foot roll and I still have more than 50 ft left so not yet into the tightly wound part of the roll.

With respect to the fine art media,  I have tried a new roll of Moab Entrada Natural 300gsm,  a recently purchased trial roll (16 ft) of HN gloss baryta, and just yesterday a brand new roll of HN fineArt Baryta Satin. Both HN media are Alpha cellulose like German Etching and thus they tend to be mechanically stiffer than cotton rag papers. Entrada is dual side coated which could perhaps make it a little more slippery, but it's always fed beautifully through my Z3200, and I've had no problems with it on a Canon iPF 8300 nor on a Canon Pro-4000. Anyway, yesterday I had a marathon session with the Z9, and I encountered the roll feed issue four times. even one time with the brand new roll of HN Baryta Satin in a new situation. It was in the Roll 1 position and "parked" which is a state where the Z9 pulls it back and out of the way so that one can switch to the other roll or even cut sheet. I had just finished a cut sheet print, and then started a new print job calling for the HN FineArt Baryta Satin in the Roll 1 position. The Z9 lost the new roll (less than 5 feet had been used to that point) as it was attempting to move it from "park" to "ready" mode.

All and all, I'm experiencing far too many roll handling issues with this printer, and it's likely not going to be resolved soon given that my country is more or less in lock down due to Covid-19. Non essential businesses all shut down, so not possible to get an HP technician out to my studio to take a look at it for the time being. I am able to work with HP tech support over the phone. HP has been really great about the phone support, and escalating the case to higher levels, but I suspect it's going to take an onsite service call before the matter gets resolved.

Meanwhile, when the Z9 does start a print job correctly, there's no slippage occurring during the printing of the image. The output quality is really beautiful.  Looking at the superb quality of the prints only makes me want to use this printer more and more, but the productivity loss due to all the reloading and restarting of jobs makes life frustrating... that and being cooped up day in and day out with nowhere to go ;D

all the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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deanwork

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Mark,

I just have a quick question. How are prints looking on the gloss fiber media? The samples I got looked good in regard to color and black and white gradients were surprisingly good, but the gloss differential issues made them unacceptable. I couldn't have used them without spraying with the Premiere Art spray. Mine were on Platine that looks beautiful on the Z3200 and even on the Canon with no gloss enhancer. . This maybe, probably? was the result of  the media setting used, which was fine art pearl more ink. I just donít know. It seems like this gloss enhancer could be tweaked in the driver or something. Are your Baryta papers looking smooth?  If so itís the media setting that was used.

John
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MHMG

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Mark,

I just have a quick question. How are prints looking on the gloss fiber media? The samples I got looked good in regard to color and black and white gradients were surprisingly good, but the gloss differential issues made them unacceptable. I couldn't have used them without spraying with the Premiere Art spray. Mine were on Platine that looks beautiful on the Z3200 and even on the Canon with no gloss enhancer. . This maybe, probably? was the result of  the media setting used, which was fine art pearl more ink. I just donít know. It seems like this gloss enhancer could be tweaked in the driver or something. Are your Baryta papers looking smooth?  If so itís the media setting that was used.

John

Looking at the HN Gloss baryta prints I made yesterday in natural light, I'd have to agree with you. The prints are color targets, and I find that the perfectly printed patches covering all the colors and tonal range do tend to emphasize gloss differential/bronzing more than  typical prints. The GE definitely isn't doing a great job on the HN gloss baryta 320, but color and tonality is excellent.  I would indeed expect to break out the Premier Print Shield spray if I were producing a serious print on this Z9/OEM ink with GE/media combination.  And yes, I used the fine art pearl more ink setting. I had tried the photo baryte setting some time ago, and didn't recall the bronzing to be so obvious. So, you are probably right that the fine art photo pearl more ink setting is introducing some bronzing and gloss diff problems. However, there's no free lunch. Gamut volume for the FAPP (more ink) ICC profile is a very respectable 804,115 whereas the Photo Baryte setting produced a color gamut volume of only 686,987. So, no free lunch. The photo Baryte media setting definitely cuts back the ink loads in the color channels, and may boost the GE. With the FAPP more ink setting I can barely see the GE on this media. That seemed odd to me, so it probably warrants some further testing.  On the other hand, the HN fineArt Baryta Satin printed with the FAPP more ink setting has well controlled bronzing and diff gloss. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. I can live with it, and I'm pretty fussy about bronzing in particular. Gamut volume for the HN FineArt Baryta Satin media came in at 776,681 which is quite good for a paper with a semi-matte/semigloss type of surface sheen.

I have the same sense about both the Canon and the HP clear coat technologies. They seem beautifully optimized for RC photo media. They work less well on fine art glossy luster media. That said, the Z3200 gives the enduser some important control on the GE ink limit, and I can usually get it to work well with these types of fine art glossy and semigloss media.  Neither the Z9 nor my Canon Pro-4000 offer any control over the clear coat channel inking other than using it over whole page or in economy mode in Canon's case, not even that on the Z9.

cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 12:04:43 pm by MHMG »
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deanwork

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Thanks Mark,

That would be a very big deal with the popularity of the fiber gloss media out there. People are not going to be spraying large prints.

With my Z3200 set up and the standard gloss enhancer workflow ( without ever having to tweak it ) I have excellent surface rendition for color and perfectly acceptable smoothness for bw on the Platine I use. So I assume Hp will have to do some more engineering with a firmware update or something.

In the beginning with the recent Canon 4000 there were complaints about this same situation. Then eventually
Canon released an updated firmware that apparently fixed it, but only if the new specific media settings were used. Scott Martin on the OnSite website has a review about that. Iím confident it will get straightened out.

https://www.on-sight.com/news/page/2/

John


Looking at the HN Gloss baryta prints I made yesterday in natural light, I'd have to agree with you. The prints are color targets, and I find that the perfectly printed patches covering all the colors and tonal range do tend to emphasize gloss differential/bronzing more than  typical prints. The GE definitely isn't doing a great job on the HN gloss baryta 320, but color and tonality is excellent.  I would indeed expect to break out the Premier Print Shield spray if I were producing a serious print on this Z9/OEM ink with GE/media combination.  And yes, I used the fine art pearl more ink setting. I had tried the photo baryte setting some time ago, and didn't recall the bronzing to be so obvious. So, you are probably right that the fine art photo pearl more ink setting is introducing some bronzing and gloss diff problems. However, there's no free lunch. Gamut volume for the FAPP (more ink) ICC profile is a very respectable 804,115 whereas the Photo Baryte setting produced a color gamut volume of only 686,987. So, no free lunch. The photo Baryte media setting definitely cuts back the ink loads in the color channels, and may boost the GE. With the FAPP more ink setting I can barely see the GE on this media. That seemed odd to me, so it probably warrants some further testing.  On the other hand, the HN fineArt Baryta printed with the FAPP more ink setting has well controlled bronzing and diff gloss. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. I can live with it, and I'm pretty fussy about bronzing in particular. Gamut volume for the HN FineArt Pearl media came in at 776,681 which is quite good for a paper with a semi-matte/semigloss type of surface sheen.

I have the same sense about both the Canon and the HP clear coat technologies. They seem beautifully optimized for RC photo media. They work less well on fine art glossy luster media. That said, the Z3200 gives the enduser some important control on the GE ink limit, and I can usually get it to work well with these types of fine art glossy and semigloss media.  Neither the Z9 nor my Canon Pro-4000 offer any control over the clear coat channel inking other than using it over whole page or in economy mode in Canon's case, not even that on the Z9.

cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 12:14:45 pm by deanwork »
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Panagiotis

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In the beginning with the recent Canon 4000 there were complaints about this same situation. Then eventually
Canon released an updated firmware that apparently fixed it, but only if the new specific media settings were used. Scott Martin on the OnSite website has a review about that. Iím confident it will get straightened out.

https://www.on-sight.com/news/page/2/

John

There is already an improvement in bronzing in the Canon PRO line of printers. Recently a "Baryta Photo Paper" media type was introduced for the Canon PRO-1000 (with the latest firmware and drivers) and for the new PRO-4100 but not yet for the 4000.
Also the driver for the 4100 has now three options for the use of CO: Auto, Overall and None.
I tested the "Baryta" type on the 1000 and the bronzing is much less.
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