Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: northerngal on January 14, 2020, 12:07:55 am

Title: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: northerngal on January 14, 2020, 12:07:55 am
I have been trying to research this, but I need some help from people who have experience with these printers, please.
My HP DesignJet 130 died in December, after 15 years of excellent printing.  I want (at least) a 24" inch printer, but I just don't know about the maintenance/repair requirements of these new printers.
- I have a part-time photography business, and I am retired from my regular job.
- I sell most of my photographs as  fine art prints, or as custom framed prints that I frame myself using custom wooden frames made by my husband, who is a lifelong woodworker. I have never done canvas prints. So far.
- I do NOT make a high number of prints, ie I'm NOT a print shop. Probably the highest number of prints I would make in a month would be 60-80.   Most months it would be 10-20 prints. Most of my prints are 12x18 and 15x21 but I have done some 23x36.
- I live in Alaska, and I am about 200 miles from Anchorage.  This can cause problems with getting technical help/repairs. Quite a few years ago, I had a maintenance contract with HP, and when I had a problem with my DJ 130, they actually sent a technician from Anchorage to my home.  I was impressed.
- I am gone on camping or photo trips several times each year, for  2 or 3 weeks at a time.  I have read widely varying experiences that people have with their printheads plugging up, so I would want a printer that is least affected by sitting unused for that time.  The rest of the time, I make sure to make a print at least every week.

--- Since I do not print a high volume of prints, I am concerned that the HP Z9 is just too much printer for me.  I think it is made for a busy print shop.  I know that I never came close to using my DJ 130 to its full capacity.  I am just a part-time photographer and printer, so price does matter to me.
--- I would like to know what kind of maintenance by a company technician is required by any of these printers.  There are no photographic printer stores in Anchorage ( by far the largest city in the state), so any technician would have to come from one of office printer stores there. When I read reviews, I often see comments about needing to have the printer serviced.  Is this something that is a normal routine, or just when needed for repair?
--- The Premium Plus papers that I used with my old printer gave me excellent lightfastness. I read the thread on here started by eternal camper back in December, and  MHMG said,"HP chemists would have to have gone seriously backwards on light fade resistance, 2x or more, with the  Z9+ Photo Vivid ink set compared to the previous Z3200 Vivera set (which has  been tested) before the HP Photo Vivid results would be on a par with the Canon Lucia Pro-11 ink set." So does this mean that the Canon 2100 is not good regarding lightfastness????  I thought that Wilhelm Research had decent ratings for the Lucia ink. 
--- I have no experience at all with Canon printers.  I don't even know anyone who has one.  Most of the photographers I know here have Epson printers (P800, 3800, 4800, 7800) and I only know one other who had an HP.  I would prefer the HP, but honestly, I'm not sure I can afford it.  I definitely prefer to have a maintenance contract, and the contracts for the Z9 are pretty expensive.
---  Can one of the Epsons (P6000 for example) sit unused for a period (couple weeks) of time? Quite a few years ago, when I was working and gone to a remote site for a couple weeks, I occasionally had some issues with my HP printer, but I found that if I printed at least every 2 weeks, it was OK.  What is the Canon 2000/2100 like on this issue?
--- Do all of these printers have "auto clean" routines, and if so, do those routines use up large amounts of ink?

It's hard to find reviews of some of these newer printers.  For example, on B&H Photo, there is only 1 review of the Canon imagePROGRAF Pro-2100...

Since I feel that the Z9 might be too much printer for me, I was kind of leaning towards the Canon 2100, but now I've just read a bunch of Epson P6000 reviews that were really positive, and which seemed to imply that the printhead plugging issues are getting better.

I sure would appreciate any and all comments, especially on lightfastness and which printers have the least maintenance issues.
Thanks!!!



-
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: NAwlins_Contrarian on January 14, 2020, 01:11:28 am
FWIW, at the outset you might want to expand your options to include
* the Canon Pro-2000, which the Pro-2100 replaced, but which is still available (e.g., B&H lists it as in stock) and is less expensive (currently $1875 versus $2495); and
* the Epson P7000, which is basically a P6000 with the extra green and orange inks.
Note that I'm not suggesting the new Epson P7570, because its speed advantage over the P6000 and P7000 does not sound important to you, and the price is a lot more (P6000 is $2095, P7000 is $2595, and P7570 is $3895). Also note that I can't see how an HP Z9+ would be "too much printer" compared to these competitors, other than that it's more expensive ($2995) than most of them.

In terms of resistant to clogs etc. when left unused, the Canon Pro-2000 has an excellent reputation, and the Pro-2100 should be essentially identical in this regard. The old HP Z3200 also has an excellent reputation, and the Z9+ should be similar, but there are fewer user reports. The current Epsons are supposed to be substantially better than their predecessors (the 7890 and 7900, respectively), but there are reports of some clogs.

In terms of likely repairs, the Canon and HP heads are user-replaceable (and at moderate cost); the Epson heads need a trained technician to replace them (and a much higher cost).

In terms of fade resistance, the current Canon inks ("Lucia Pro") are (IMO / arguably) pretty good but significantly behind the current Epson inks ("UltraChrome HDX"--and probably / presumably the new P7570 inks, "UltraChrome Pro12"). The inks for the old Z3200 were by a good margin the most fade-resistant, and preliminary reports suggest the Z9+ inks may well be as good or better.

Given your usage pattern and location, I can't see buying an Epson. The question would then be between a Canon Pro-2000 for $1875, a Canon Pro-2100 for $2495, or an HP Z9+ for $2995. Is the HP's likely superior fade resistance (and/or built-in spectrophotometer) worth an extra $500 or $1120?
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: mcbroomf on January 14, 2020, 06:01:05 am
While I can't help on your printer choice I'd strongly suggest you set up your computer to run a test print weekly or even more (mine prints daily).  I was away for 6 weeks last year and had a friend come in and run a test print pattern once a week but since then I found that Qimage Ultimage can be set up to run one automatically and it's now done that over several 2 week trips.  Qimage is now available for Mac as well as Win and is worth it for that alone IMO.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: JeanMichel on January 14, 2020, 11:00:43 am
I have both a P800 and a P6000. The P6000 is not used daily and sits idle for weeks at a time; so far, knock on wood, there have ben zero issues with head clogging or anything else. The same was not true with my departed 7890, purchasing the P6000 made more sense than repairing the 78090 at the time!

There is ample evidence that the Epson pigment inks -current and older - have much greater lightfastness than any chromogenic prints. I imagine that Canon and HP inks are similar.

If you plan to make canvas prints, spending a few more dollars on a 44 inch printer may be a better option. I occasionally print on canvas and that does restrict the maximum size of the image. At best, I get a 20 inch face if I use only ĺ" stretcher bars; using thicker bars reduces the face by that much more. For paper prints I also restrict myself to 20 inches wide, big enough for me.

I chose the P6000 over the P7000 after looking at photographic output from both. Perhaps it just my vision, but I could not see any real differences between the prints. I do, or did, as I am leaving my design business, jobs requiring proofing (cmyk, Pantone, etc)  and for those I was much better to rely on the proofs from the printing house.

I have no idea on how the Canon and HP printers fare, but I suspect that they are equally good.

Best wishes for the new year.


Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Eric Brody on January 14, 2020, 12:52:32 pm
I'd look at Keith Cooper's printer reviews, http://www.northlight-images.co.uk. He's remarkably objective and helpful Mark Segal on this website and now on PhotoPXL also has superbly objective printer reviews. I've also followed this question for years, having lusted for a 24" printer and being a step below you in usage (strict amateur, rare print sales, finite home wall space). From reading way too many internet postings, I've concluded, as have many people, that as regards clogging, Epsons have been improving over time but are still more likely to clog than the Canons. Canon's have user replaceable heads whereas Epson do not. Canons effortlessly switch between matte and glossy paper, Epson still require an annoying ink switch (except for the newest one, the cost of which will buy a LOT of ink). Print quality seems to be excellent from all current Epson, Canon, and HP printers. I use Roy Harrington's QTR driver for my black and white images. QTR is not available for Canon printers so I'll likely stay in the Epson universe for now. Were it not for my obsession with QTR, if I needed a new printer today,(my 3880 is still chugging along) I'd almost surely get a Canon Pro-2000 or Pro-2100. A friend really loves his P6000 but that's anecdote and none of us should confuse anecdotes with real data.
Best of luck to you in your quest.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: MHMG on January 14, 2020, 01:02:11 pm
I have had the Z9dr (dual roll with vertical trimmer) 44 inch model in my studio for about two months.  My good friend and frequent contributor to this forum, Mark Linquist, has the 24 inch single roll model of the Z9+.  There are distinct differences between the two models, especially with respect to cut sheet feeding, but all WF roll printers are best suited for use with rolls.  We can talk about cut sheet feeding later if you like. Given your description of use, you only need the single roll Z9+. If you routinely print on glossy/luster media, I do recommend adding the Gloss Enhancer kit to the Z9+ printer. GE is optional on the Z9 and can be added by the user at any time, but the kit comes with one new printhead as well as the GE clear coat ink, and if you do the installation right when the printer is new and being initialized for the first time, you won't need to install that printhead. You can thus save it as a spare because it's a universal print head on the Z9. Works for any pair of the color channels. Gloss enhancer is standard with Canon printer models using the Canon Pro-11 ink set (Pro-1000, 2000/2100, 4000/4100).  I also own a Canon Pro-4000 which is the 44 inch version of the Pro-2000. The Pro-2100 gets some new media handling features, as I understand it, but the ink formulation, print head configuration, and print quality are same as Pro-2000.

 I don't think you can go wrong with either the Pro-2000/2100 or the HP Z9+ models, but as a photographer and printmaker who is very particular about a color managed workflow, The Z9 just takes care of the printer calibration and custom ICC profiling steps easily. It has already spoiled me! One can calibrate and profile a new media on the Z9 in less than an hour, all pretty much unattended. And then jump right into serious printmaking without feeling like you've just run a color management marathon! Calibrating and profiling a new media on my Pro-4000 with a profiling kit like the Xrite i1Pro2 takes closer to half a day. And it's tedious. Many more hoops to jump through as well. So, there's that. Potential buyers need to weigh the cost/benefit of the Z9's built-in spectrophotometer, but I personally think it's worth every penny extra when comparing the initial costs and ongoing calibration/profiling regimens of any wide format inkjet printer.

The Epson, Canon, and HP 24/44 inch printer models being discussed here use pigmented inks, whereas your older DJ 130 used dye based inks. As such, all of these OEM pigmented ink sets will likely outperform your DJ 130 OEM dye-base ink on a variety of media with respect to light fastnesss and overall print permanence properties. I am readying a new round of light fastness tests on various media which will commence soon, and this round of tests will have direct sample comparisons between the newer HP photo vivid inks used in the Z9+ versus the older Vivera Pigment ink set used in the Z3200 models (I have an HP Z3200 printer in my lab as well).  So, it's technically a bit premature to claim superior light fade results with HP's latest Photo Vivid inks, but discussions I've had with HP's design team along with testing I've done on the older Vivera Pigment with Chromata Red ink set lead me to be very optimistic about the Z9's Photo Vivid fade resistance properties. In truth, media choice is THE WILD CARD with any of these pigmented ink sets when it comes to final print permanence ratings. Yet as others have noted, the Canon Lucia-Pro 11 ink set will most likely remain in third place by a factor as much as 2x... yet still better than what you had with the DJ 130.  That said, media choice matters even more when inherent ink stability is not as robust, so the HP and Epson printer models do provide a commendable light fastness superiority on many media over the Canon printer models at this point in time, and I think HP is most likely going to remain "king of the hill" when it comes to best-in-class fade resistance of it's aqueous pigmented ink sets. Outstanding fade resistance plus a color balanced fade signature when/if fading does eventually become noticeable matters to printmakers like me, not so much to others who believe any OEM pigment ink is probably "good enough". It's a personal decision. No right or wrong there.

My personal view of "too much printer" is that many photographers make the mistake of drawing a line in the sand at 13 and 17 inch desktop inkjet printers when with a little more effort and initial costs up front, they can really up their game with 24 inch roll models, and even stretching to 44 inches only adds some initial cost (and size and weight if you can deal with it) but really no more complexity to run and maintain. As for reliability between Canon, Epson, and HP, we all have read anecdotal horror stories about these manufacturers' printers and poor tech support after the sale, but average cost of ownership numbers and objective customer satisfaction surveys are impossible to come by, so IMHO, it's a bit of a roll of the dice.  Because you've had good experience with HP and the Z9 can be put on an extended warranty service contract, as can Epson's and Canons, I think in your situation, I'd take peace of mind and add the extended warranty with whatever printer you decide to buy.

Lastly, the Z9+ and the Canon Pro series models both do "behind the scenes" self-cleaning printhead maintenance. The Z9's automatic maintenance is more transparent to the user, i.e., it wakes from sleep and just quietly and efficiently does it, and I feel it's reassuring presence that all is well, so I don't find a need to feed the Z9 daily or weekly clog prevention prints. With my Pro-4000, it "hides" those maintenance routines in and around the print jobs, so it's there but far less transparent what's going on to the end user. As such, if I leave it unattended for a couple of weeks, I do wonder whether it's ready to go when I bring a new print job to it. Yet, honestly, it is highly reliable and ready to go at all times. So kudos to both Canon and HP for getting their thermal heads to run reliably without any real need for daily or weekly intervention until it is finally time to replace a print head. And when that happens, it's a simple enduser task on both the Canon and HP. No need to call a technician.

Good luck with your printer buying decision.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 14, 2020, 01:51:44 pm
From reading way too many internet postings, I've concluded, as have many people, that as regards clogging, Epsons have been improving over time...

Not monotonically. The 9800, for example, is much more clog-free in intermittent use than the 9900.

Jim
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: gkroeger on January 14, 2020, 02:08:56 pm
I have an Epson P7000 that often goes for weeks without use. I try to run a nozzle check every couple of weeks just to move some ink through. In two years, I have only had to run a nozzle cleaning twice, and both times just on one pair of inks.  Much better than my previous SC7800.

Glenn
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: stockjock on January 14, 2020, 06:23:46 pm
I have had the Z9dr (dual roll with vertical trimmer) 44 inch model in my studio for about two months.  My good friend and frequent contributor to this forum, Mark Linquist, has the 24 inch single roll model of the Z9+.  There are distinct differences between the two models, especially with respect to cut sheet feeding, but all WF roll printers are best suited for use with rolls.  We can talk about cut sheet feeding later if you like.

Hi Mark,

Would you mind talking about cut sheet feeding now?  I have a Canon iPF8400 that I have been very happy with except for having to laboriously manually feed cut sheets.  Consequently I use it almost exclusively for roll printing but I just tallied it up and I have 20 boxes of 17x22" paper lying around that I really ought to use and 17x22" is my standard print size even on rolls.  Is there a large format printer than can automatically feed cut sheets or should I just get a P800 for that?

As an aside, the Canon has worked flawlessly for me with relatively low print volumes but I have had to replace two print heads in the past 4 years.

Thanks,

Paul
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: northerngal on January 15, 2020, 03:10:34 am
Wow, thanks for the responses, everyone!
My mind is churning.
 To NAwlins_Contrarian, yes, I am open to those other models.
And Mark, thanks for the in-depth comments. I just watched a YouTube video on setting up a Z9, and I thought it was interesting how much the printheads and ink cartridges, and where they are in the printer is so much like how it was on my old HP printer.

OK, based on the need for expert technician assistance to install a new printhead on the Epsons, I think I am relegating them to the back burner.  So that leaves the Canon 2000/2100 and the HP Z9.  I also have not completely  decided whether or not to go with a 44-inch machine.
I'm not sure I can say I have had ALL good experiences with HP. I have spent a lot of worthless hours wading through their websites, and ordering things from them.  On the other hand, in the past they had fantastic no or low cost shipping, and that can be a major advantage for getting things to Alaska.  They did a great job with the next-day service contract, too.

I generally stick to a few paper options, so I am not too concerned about the time it takes to do profiles for new papers.  However, I am concerned about the lightfastness and longevity issues.  I'm hoping my prints will last for a long, long time.  I also have some framed prints in public buildings, and I hope to do more of that, and to have those prints look good for a long time.

At this point, I am leaning towards the HP Z9, but I need to look at this a little more, and get my head around the $ outlay it will take to get the printer and all the associated ink, printheads and accessories.  I'm more of a photographer than I am a printer.  It's a whole lot easier for me to spend a couple thou on a camera than it is on a printer!

Thanks again for all the input. I have to admit, I am NOT looking forward to ordering this printer, whichever one I get.  It's the beginning of a lot of worry and headache and angst.
Speaking of that, do most people order direct from the manufacturer, or from a reseller? Local or online?  I ordered my 130 direct from HP, but I have gotten most of my camera equipment from B&H, although I don't how good they are at things like printers.

Thanks again!

Title: just got my new canon 2100 up and running....and first of all
Post by: msongs on January 15, 2020, 07:45:57 pm
the ink is a gouge. widely read on the net that setup uses half of the starter carts but it is clear that they use way more than that. have done a few prints and they look good of course, but have not yet gotten into regular printing. expecting it to work well for the price it ought to lol
Title: Head strikes
Post by: Jim Kasson on January 15, 2020, 08:16:21 pm
I, too, am in the market for a new 24 /44 inch printer, to replace my aging -- but still operating, thank the Lord -- Epson 9800. I've been having head strikes with that on baryta roll paper, and haven't found a surefire way around them (increasing the plane gap helps). Are there any material differences among the current Canon, HP, and Epson printers WRt roll-paper head strikes?

I don't have any problem at all with sheet paper, but that's getting harder and harder to find in large sizes.

Jim
Title: Re: Head strikes
Post by: Panagiotis on January 16, 2020, 02:45:55 am
I, too, am in the market for a new 24 /44 inch printer, to replace my aging -- but still operating, thank the Lord -- Epson 9800. I've been having head strikes with that on baryta roll paper, and haven't found a surefire way around them (increasing the plane gap helps). Are there any material differences among the current Canon, HP, and Epson printers WRt roll-paper head strikes?

I don't have any problem at all with sheet paper, but that's getting harder and harder to find in large sizes.

Jim

I can comment only on the Canon PRO-4000 which I use. I leave everything at "Auto" (head height, sunction etc) which is the default for every media type. I have zero head strikes even on the stiff Canson Baryta Prestige 340.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Mark Lindquist on January 16, 2020, 10:27:42 pm
To me, this is a no-brainer.

The Z9+ is incredible, quiet, a work-horse, a Ferrari, and a truck - a Swiss Army Knife / Shopsmith of printers.

It does it all, fast and economically.

Amazing printer actually.  Good luck - Mark

HP DesignJet Z9+ 24-in printer review and evaluation (https://youtu.be/0vDan9Ijtyg)
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Dan Wells on January 16, 2020, 11:55:22 pm
I can't comment on HP - having not used anything from them newer than a DJ 130 (interesting machine, by the way - a true desktop 24" printer). All the new ones are 3-5x as big and heavy as that old DesignJet, although also much faster and with far improved roll handling - the DJ 130 claimed to handle rolls, but it really didn't - the "roll holder" wasn't powered, and was a much closer relative of a toilet paper roller than the sophisticated roll handlers on modern printers.

Between Canon and Epson, Canon for sure for the usage you described. Canons are impressively clog-free when used intermittently. Epsons are said to be getting better, but they still prefer daily use (e.g. a busy print shop, not an artist printing her own work). Some really high-production print shops like Epson better, because Canon heads have a finite life, and a shop that prints a ton can burn out the heads in a year or two (a 5 minute job to replace that you do yourself, but a $500 part). Most photographers get much more than that out of a Canon head - I've never replaced one in one of my own Canons, and the one I did for friend, the machine was 6 years old.

Epson heads last the life of the machine - unless they get a really bad clog. If you do kill an Epson head with a clog, it's not worth replacing on a 24" printer, and the math isn't great even on a 44" printer (it's about a $2000 job that involves a service call - it might be even more expensive in Alaska) - a new 24" printer is often under $2500 with a full set of new ink and a warranty, while a new 44" is about $3500 with ink and warranty. It's only really worth it on a $10,000 60" machine.

HP heads are more or less similar to Canon, except that they take a bunch of cheaper heads instead of one expensive one - a great feature if one channel goes out.

I currently own a Canon Pro-2000, and I love it - an easy machine to use, terrific print quality. I print kind of like you do, and I've never had a problem with my Pro-2000.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: stockjock on January 17, 2020, 02:37:07 am
To me, this is a no-brainer.

The Z9+ is incredible, quiet, a work-horse, a Ferrari, and a truck - a Swiss Army Knife / Shopsmith of printers.

It does it all, fast and economically.

Amazing printer actually.  Good luck - Mark

HP DesignJet Z9+ 24-in printer review and evaluation (https://youtu.be/0vDan9Ijtyg)

Hi Mark.  How does the Z9+ handle cut sheets and does each sheet need to be manually loaded or does it have any kind of automatic cut sheet feeder?
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: northerngal on January 17, 2020, 02:42:17 pm
I would be interested in hearing about cut sheets, too. I don't think I have seen cut sheets being used in any of the videos I have looked at.
Up until now, I have used mostly sheets, although we  made a roll holder for the DJ 130 and I made large prints that way. I will look at what is available.  The HP paper I used to get is no longer available.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: MHMG on January 17, 2020, 03:28:26 pm
I would be interested in hearing about cut sheets, too. I don't think I have seen cut sheets being used in any of the videos I have looked at.
Up until now, I have used mostly sheets, although we  made a roll holder for the DJ 130 and I made large prints that way. I will look at what is available.  The HP paper I used to get is no longer available.

The Pro 2000/4000 models handle cut sheet from the front of the machine. You have to lift a lever, slide the sheet in, square it up with two orange lines (effectively defining where one corner of the sheet must rest before closing lever), then close lever. The orange lines are just guidelines. There are no physical guides to line the edge of the sheet up against. If you don't get it lined up right along those orange guidelines it will fail a skew check, you have to lift lever and try again. Or it may take the sheet, but now your positioning of the image will be a little off. So, practice helps. That said, I did get much better loading cut sheet over time on my Pro-4000. However, loading large cut sheet, say a 24x36 or 32x40, takes more skill because you will want to keep both hands on a large sheet so that it doesn't slip. That means closing the lever gets tricky because you will at the last moment have to transfer one hand over to close the lever. Bottom line: Pro2000/4000 aren't ideal for loading cut sheet, but you get used to it.

My Z9dr (dual roll) feeds a sheet from the top surface of the printer. You first indicate on the LCD panel of the printer that you want to load cut sheet. It guides you with instructions on the panel. Small sheets (letter size) feed fairly deep into the slot, and it's best to keep pressure up against a springy stop with one hand while using the other to touch the LCD touch screen when you are ready to proceed. The slot gives a fair amount of resistance, so I doubt you could get a thin sheet of bond paper into it without creasing it. But it is fine for RC photo or thicker fine art sheet, albeit a bit stiff with thicker sheet, so go slow.  Like the Pro-2000, the printer then performs a skew check, and if it fails, (which it does all too frequently, but with practice it's happening less and less on me) it will tell you to unload the sheet with one of two behaviors 1) a full movement unloading of the sheet so you have to start over, or 2) an internal release of the sheet where it will tell you to align again to a set of guidelines on the roll 1 cover of the printer. I still haven't completely figured out what prompts one of those behaviors over the other, and large sheets get tricky because sometimes it's better to load a large sheet from behind the printer into this top center slot tray, at which point, it gets difficult to press the touch screen and hold sheet in the slot at the same time. However, one nice thing about the Z9dr center cut sheet slot is that it "parks" the rolls and allows you to feed cut sheet without removing the rolls. They are ready to go whenever you stop using cut sheet. With the Canon Pro-2000/4000 you have to remove the roll from the feed position (but the spindle with roll can stay on the printer) and then reload the roll after you are finished feeding cut sheets.

I believe the single roll Z9+ has both a center slot like the Z9dr and a rear slot with straighter feed path on the rear of the machine. The Z9dr gives that slot up for the second roll position. As such the Z9 single roll model cut sheet handling would be best described by Mark Linquist, and hopefully he will chime in on this discussion. From my own discussions with Mark, I think the single roll Z9 also parks the roll so that you don't have to remove it, but again, hopefully Mark L. will confirm.

The Canon Pro2100/4100 have made roll handling efficiency improvement over the Pro2000/4000, so I can't say how these newer Canons fare with cut sheet handling. Ditto with the latest Epson printers as I haven't even seen one let alone used it.

Cheers,
Mark M.
http:/www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Mark Lindquist on January 18, 2020, 05:31:22 pm
I would be interested in hearing about cut sheets, too. I don't think I have seen cut sheets being used in any of the videos I have looked at.
Up until now, I have used mostly sheets, although we  made a roll holder for the DJ 130 and I made large prints that way. I will look at what is available.  The HP paper I used to get is no longer available.

The 24" Z9+ is great at handling cut sheets as long as you make the little stick on guide that I discussed in one of the threads here (possibly someone can find it).
In order to use cut sheets, unfortunately the roll has to be unloaded, as the sheet feeds in, in the rear tray.  Apparently one can load from the top but I don't do it that way.

I have about 98-99% success loading sheets from the rear tray the first time now.

All of these printers are designed as roll printers - it's that simple.  But if you are doing a lot of sheet fed work, the Z9+ 24" is fine and does a superb job.

-Mark
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: northerngal on January 22, 2020, 03:04:05 am
Thanks, guys!   :)
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Terry_Kennedy on January 30, 2020, 10:57:05 pm
Epson heads last the life of the machine - unless they get a really bad clog. If you do kill an Epson head with a clog, it's not worth replacing on a 24" printer, and the math isn't great even on a 44" printer (it's about a $2000 job that involves a service call - it might be even more expensive in Alaska) - a new 24" printer is often under $2500 with a full set of new ink and a warranty, while a new 44" is about $3500 with ink and warranty. It's only really worth it on a $10,000 60" machine.

I haven't paid more than $500 for an Epson P10000 (yes, the printer, not the ink). The last one I got was $414 (Proof (https://www.glaver.org/transient/P10K-ebay.pdf)). At that price I pick them up for the ink in them and potentally usable spare parts. However, this printer was perfectly functional. It was just past its extended warranty (before the top-secret additional 2 years for a total of 5 years deal came out) and the large commercial shop it came from didn't want to risk the downtime and unpredictable repair costs so they just bought a new one. They had 3 P10Ks running jobs there when I went to pick up this one. I wouldn't recommend these "scavenger hunt" printers for companies that need to be able to do a lot of prints on a tight deadline, but for someone who does occasional printing and doesn't mind the occasional DIY repair, you can end up with a LOT of printer for not much money.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Christopher on April 11, 2020, 05:06:23 pm
How does the z9 secure the paper with rolls and are star marks a problem?
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: PeterAit on April 12, 2020, 10:19:54 am
While I can't help on your printer choice I'd strongly suggest you set up your computer to run a test print weekly or even more (mine prints daily).  I was away for 6 weeks last year and had a friend come in and run a test print pattern once a week but since then I found that Qimage Ultimage can be set up to run one automatically and it's now done that over several 2 week trips.  Qimage is now available for Mac as well as Win and is worth it for that alone IMO.

It's beyond me why the printer makers do not build this into the printer.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: MHMG on April 12, 2020, 01:49:44 pm
It's beyond me why the printer makers do not build this into the printer.

HP does, and to a lesser extent Canon on their pro level printers. My HP Z9 and my HP Z3200 come out of sleep, shoot a little ink once or twice a day (I've never timed it but it is daily), and then they go back to sleep. The minor price one pays is a little electricity used in sleep mode rather than full shut down. My Canon Pro-1000 and Pro-4000 also stay maintained, but don't do a daily routine. They seem to run a variable sequence right as one sends the first print file to the printer, and they also have longer and rather obtuse timing/cleaning cycles initiated by the first print in the printing session, which if left idle for many days will generate a much bigger maintenance cycle than my HP printers. That suggests daily printing might hold the ink wastage down, but again, its so obtuse that I don't think anyone has really sorted out the precise relationship between use or lack thereof and the amount of cleaning that gets automatically performed by the Canon printers.  That said, however they do it, both the Canons and the Hp Z's are ready to print when I am.

I have only one desktop Epson printer, the Surecolor P600, and it's classic Epson. The very first thing I have to do before even thinking about printing on it is to run a nozzle check...and that more often than not leads to a user induced cleaning cycle to clear a few problems in the check pattern. To be fair, I suspect the ink wasting is higher on the prosumer Canon Pro-1000 than on the Epson P600 and that even includes the occasional Epson PK/MK ink swapping. It's my labor time to get the P600 back up and running that I really don't like. I don't really factor in the wasted ink, although that's never desirable, either.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: MHMG on April 12, 2020, 02:14:33 pm
How does the z9 secure the paper with rolls and are star marks a problem?

I wish I could answer that. I haven't seen star wheel marks, but I've been running into definite roll feed issues relating to core set on thicker fine art papers as they reach closer to the end of roll. I have the Z9+ dual roll model, and my issue has been with fine art media in both roll 1 and roll 2 positions. Feed problems start occurring as the media gets used up about 3/4 of the way into the roll. So, printing goes smoothly until that last quarter of the roll is now starting to get used.  Also, I'm working mainly with 24 inch rolls for the mean time as I get more familiar with the printer, so I don't know whether the problems I'm facing are there on wider media. Perhaps with more surface area to grab onto, the problem I'm facing might not happen. The symptom is that once the core set (paper curl) gets strong enough, the paper slips a little just as the printing starts. The print otherwise runs fine, so it's not slipping when enough paper is fully engaged under the forward star wheels that follow the printhead location, but once that job is cut, the printer loses track of where the paper is due to that initial slight slippage, and it then winds the roll too far back, thus causing the roll to be ejected. One needs to reload the roll at that point. Unwinding and decurling several feet of the roll before reloading eliminates the issue until once again the printer starts running into more paper curl resistance on the remaining footage. Frustrating, but at least this is one crude work around. I'm seeking a better solution for sure

I've trying some other work arounds, however, as the problem only occurs when one is fairly far into a new roll, it's time consuming experimentation. I'm working with HP tech support at this time to try to resolve the issue.  What I really don't know is whether this is a problem with my specific printer unit or whether it's a basic design issue with the Z9dr model. HP tech support doesn't appear to have much experience with thicker fine art media, so it's a bit of the blind leading the blind unfortunately.  I also don't know whether the single roll unit would have the issues I'm having with the dual roll model.

Other than that :), I love this printer, so I will keep folks posted as my roll feed issue gets resolved (or not). Ironically, because cut sheet is flat or can be de-curled by the enduser right before use, it feeds just fine. Print quality is superb.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Panagiotis on April 12, 2020, 03:04:34 pm
... My Canon Pro-1000 and Pro-4000 also stay maintained, but don't do a daily routine. They seem to run a variable sequence right as one sends the first print file to the printer, and they also have longer and rather obtuse timing/cleaning cycles initiated by the first print in the printing session, which if left idle for many days will generate a much bigger maintenance cycle than my HP printers....

I also have these two printers (PRO-1000 and PRO-4000) and your description of the maintenance procedure is right except that I recently witnessed the 4000 waking up and performing a long cleaning cycle by its own, without me sending first a print job. I was late in my studio and it surprised me.
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on April 14, 2020, 05:15:47 am
I wish I could answer that. I haven't seen star wheel marks, but I've been running into definite roll feed issues relating to core set on thicker fine art papers as they reach closer to the end of roll. I have the Z9+ dual roll model, and my issue has been with fine art media in both roll 1 and roll 2 positions. Feed problems start occurring as the media gets used up about 3/4 of the way into the roll. So, printing goes smoothly until that last quarter of the roll is now starting to get used.  Also, I'm working mainly with 24 inch rolls for the mean time as I get more familiar with the printer, so I don't know whether the problems I'm facing are there on wider media. Perhaps with more surface area to grab onto, the problem I'm facing might not happen. The symptom is that once the core set (paper curl) gets strong enough, the paper slips a little just as the printing starts. The print otherwise runs fine, so it's not slipping when enough paper is fully engaged under the forward star wheels that follow the printhead location, but once that job is cut, the printer loses track of where the paper is due to that initial slight slippage, and it then winds the roll too far back, thus causing the roll to be ejected. One needs to reload the roll at that point. Unwinding and decurling several feet of the roll before reloading eliminates the issue until once again the printer starts running into more paper curl resistance on the remaining footage. Frustrating, but at least this is one crude work around. I'm seeking a better solution for sure

I've trying some other work arounds, however, as the problem only occurs when one is fairly far into a new roll, it's time consuming experimentation. I'm working with HP tech support at this time to try to resolve the issue.  What I really don't know is whether this is a problem with my specific printer unit or whether it's a basic design issue with the Z9dr model. HP tech support doesn't appear to have much experience with thicker fine art media, so it's a bit of the blind leading the blind unfortunately.  I also don't know whether the single roll unit would have the issues I'm having with the dual roll model.


cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Lately I experienced the slipping of the media transport axle at the leading edge more often on my 11.5 year Z3200-PS. German Etching especially. It is not just the curl getting more pronounced towards the core of the roll but also the age of the paper roll I think. It is harder to unroll an older roll. Could be that the transport axle texture is affected by wear so less friction created on the paper. Other cause could be the springs on the tensioners weakening + the tensioners rollers having some friction on their own tiny axles. German Etching being an Alpha Cellulose paper probably has shorter fibers than a cotton based paper, I see wear towards the edge at the underside of the paper when it did not transport well.  36 and 44" rolls is what I use.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

        T
SOLI  AIR
        D
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: MHMG on April 14, 2020, 09:07:21 am
Lately I experienced the slipping of the media transport axle at the leading edge more often on my 11.5 year Z3200-PS. German Etching especially. It is not just the curl getting more pronounced towards the core of the roll but also the age of the paper roll I think. It is harder to unroll an older roll. Could be that the transport axle texture is affected by wear so less friction created on the paper. Other cause could be the springs on the tensioners weakening + the tensioners rollers having some friction on their own tiny axles. German Etching being an Alpha Cellulose paper probably has shorter fibers than a cotton based paper, I see wear towards the edge at the underside of the paper when it did not transport well.  36 and 44" rolls is what I use.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

        T
SOLI  AIR
        D

Thanks for those insights, Ernst. As far as I know the Z9 delivered to me is not a refurb. It's new out of the box, but it was shipped by HP management from Barcelona rather than delivered from a U.S.A. dealer. It may be older stock thus perhaps an early production unit, and I'm beginning to suspect the roll feed problems I'm having are specific to  my printer unit... as you suggest. probably something with the tensioning of the feed rollers. In any case, I have not been able to feed any fine art roll media (all purchased recently) without running into unwanted roll unloads that the printer hardware/software doesn't know is happening. That said, no problems yet with a roll of RC photo media, but its' a 100 foot roll and I still have more than 50 ft left so not yet into the tightly wound part of the roll.

With respect to the fine art media,  I have tried a new roll of Moab Entrada Natural 300gsm,  a recently purchased trial roll (16 ft) of HN gloss baryta, and just yesterday a brand new roll of HN fineArt Baryta Satin. Both HN media are Alpha cellulose like German Etching and thus they tend to be mechanically stiffer than cotton rag papers. Entrada is dual side coated which could perhaps make it a little more slippery, but it's always fed beautifully through my Z3200, and I've had no problems with it on a Canon iPF 8300 nor on a Canon Pro-4000. Anyway, yesterday I had a marathon session with the Z9, and I encountered the roll feed issue four times. even one time with the brand new roll of HN Baryta Satin in a new situation. It was in the Roll 1 position and "parked" which is a state where the Z9 pulls it back and out of the way so that one can switch to the other roll or even cut sheet. I had just finished a cut sheet print, and then started a new print job calling for the HN FineArt Baryta Satin in the Roll 1 position. The Z9 lost the new roll (less than 5 feet had been used to that point) as it was attempting to move it from "park" to "ready" mode.

All and all, I'm experiencing far too many roll handling issues with this printer, and it's likely not going to be resolved soon given that my country is more or less in lock down due to Covid-19. Non essential businesses all shut down, so not possible to get an HP technician out to my studio to take a look at it for the time being. I am able to work with HP tech support over the phone. HP has been really great about the phone support, and escalating the case to higher levels, but I suspect it's going to take an onsite service call before the matter gets resolved.

Meanwhile, when the Z9 does start a print job correctly, there's no slippage occurring during the printing of the image. The output quality is really beautiful.  Looking at the superb quality of the prints only makes me want to use this printer more and more, but the productivity loss due to all the reloading and restarting of jobs makes life frustrating... that and being cooped up day in and day out with nowhere to go ;D

all the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: deanwork on April 14, 2020, 09:23:28 am
Mark,

I just have a quick question. How are prints looking on the gloss fiber media? The samples I got looked good in regard to color and black and white gradients were surprisingly good, but the gloss differential issues made them unacceptable. I couldn't have used them without spraying with the Premiere Art spray. Mine were on Platine that looks beautiful on the Z3200 and even on the Canon with no gloss enhancer. . This maybe, probably? was the result of  the media setting used, which was fine art pearl more ink. I just donít know. It seems like this gloss enhancer could be tweaked in the driver or something. Are your Baryta papers looking smooth?  If so itís the media setting that was used.

John
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: MHMG on April 14, 2020, 11:11:49 am
Mark,

I just have a quick question. How are prints looking on the gloss fiber media? The samples I got looked good in regard to color and black and white gradients were surprisingly good, but the gloss differential issues made them unacceptable. I couldn't have used them without spraying with the Premiere Art spray. Mine were on Platine that looks beautiful on the Z3200 and even on the Canon with no gloss enhancer. . This maybe, probably? was the result of  the media setting used, which was fine art pearl more ink. I just donít know. It seems like this gloss enhancer could be tweaked in the driver or something. Are your Baryta papers looking smooth?  If so itís the media setting that was used.

John

Looking at the HN Gloss baryta prints I made yesterday in natural light, I'd have to agree with you. The prints are color targets, and I find that the perfectly printed patches covering all the colors and tonal range do tend to emphasize gloss differential/bronzing more than  typical prints. The GE definitely isn't doing a great job on the HN gloss baryta 320, but color and tonality is excellent.  I would indeed expect to break out the Premier Print Shield spray if I were producing a serious print on this Z9/OEM ink with GE/media combination.  And yes, I used the fine art pearl more ink setting. I had tried the photo baryte setting some time ago, and didn't recall the bronzing to be so obvious. So, you are probably right that the fine art photo pearl more ink setting is introducing some bronzing and gloss diff problems. However, there's no free lunch. Gamut volume for the FAPP (more ink) ICC profile is a very respectable 804,115 whereas the Photo Baryte setting produced a color gamut volume of only 686,987. So, no free lunch. The photo Baryte media setting definitely cuts back the ink loads in the color channels, and may boost the GE. With the FAPP more ink setting I can barely see the GE on this media. That seemed odd to me, so it probably warrants some further testing.  On the other hand, the HN fineArt Baryta Satin printed with the FAPP more ink setting has well controlled bronzing and diff gloss. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. I can live with it, and I'm pretty fussy about bronzing in particular. Gamut volume for the HN FineArt Baryta Satin media came in at 776,681 which is quite good for a paper with a semi-matte/semigloss type of surface sheen.

I have the same sense about both the Canon and the HP clear coat technologies. They seem beautifully optimized for RC photo media. They work less well on fine art glossy luster media. That said, the Z3200 gives the enduser some important control on the GE ink limit, and I can usually get it to work well with these types of fine art glossy and semigloss media.  Neither the Z9 nor my Canon Pro-4000 offer any control over the clear coat channel inking other than using it over whole page or in economy mode in Canon's case, not even that on the Z9.

cheers,
Mark
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: deanwork on April 14, 2020, 12:09:07 pm
Thanks Mark,

That would be a very big deal with the popularity of the fiber gloss media out there. People are not going to be spraying large prints.

With my Z3200 set up and the standard gloss enhancer workflow ( without ever having to tweak it ) I have excellent surface rendition for color and perfectly acceptable smoothness for bw on the Platine I use. So I assume Hp will have to do some more engineering with a firmware update or something.

In the beginning with the recent Canon 4000 there were complaints about this same situation. Then eventually
Canon released an updated firmware that apparently fixed it, but only if the new specific media settings were used. Scott Martin on the OnSite website has a review about that. Iím confident it will get straightened out.

https://www.on-sight.com/news/page/2/

John


Looking at the HN Gloss baryta prints I made yesterday in natural light, I'd have to agree with you. The prints are color targets, and I find that the perfectly printed patches covering all the colors and tonal range do tend to emphasize gloss differential/bronzing more than  typical prints. The GE definitely isn't doing a great job on the HN gloss baryta 320, but color and tonality is excellent.  I would indeed expect to break out the Premier Print Shield spray if I were producing a serious print on this Z9/OEM ink with GE/media combination.  And yes, I used the fine art pearl more ink setting. I had tried the photo baryte setting some time ago, and didn't recall the bronzing to be so obvious. So, you are probably right that the fine art photo pearl more ink setting is introducing some bronzing and gloss diff problems. However, there's no free lunch. Gamut volume for the FAPP (more ink) ICC profile is a very respectable 804,115 whereas the Photo Baryte setting produced a color gamut volume of only 686,987. So, no free lunch. The photo Baryte media setting definitely cuts back the ink loads in the color channels, and may boost the GE. With the FAPP more ink setting I can barely see the GE on this media. That seemed odd to me, so it probably warrants some further testing.  On the other hand, the HN fineArt Baryta printed with the FAPP more ink setting has well controlled bronzing and diff gloss. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. I can live with it, and I'm pretty fussy about bronzing in particular. Gamut volume for the HN FineArt Pearl media came in at 776,681 which is quite good for a paper with a semi-matte/semigloss type of surface sheen.

I have the same sense about both the Canon and the HP clear coat technologies. They seem beautifully optimized for RC photo media. They work less well on fine art glossy luster media. That said, the Z3200 gives the enduser some important control on the GE ink limit, and I can usually get it to work well with these types of fine art glossy and semigloss media.  Neither the Z9 nor my Canon Pro-4000 offer any control over the clear coat channel inking other than using it over whole page or in economy mode in Canon's case, not even that on the Z9.

cheers,
Mark
Title: Re: Need a new 24" printer: Canon 2100, HP Z9 or Epson 6000? Remote location
Post by: Panagiotis on April 14, 2020, 02:06:53 pm
In the beginning with the recent Canon 4000 there were complaints about this same situation. Then eventually
Canon released an updated firmware that apparently fixed it, but only if the new specific media settings were used. Scott Martin on the OnSite website has a review about that. Iím confident it will get straightened out.

https://www.on-sight.com/news/page/2/

John

There is already an improvement in bronzing in the Canon PRO line of printers. Recently a "Baryta Photo Paper" media type was introduced for the Canon PRO-1000 (with the latest firmware and drivers) and for the new PRO-4100 but not yet for the 4000.
Also the driver for the 4100 has now three options for the use of CO: Auto, Overall and None.
I tested the "Baryta" type on the 1000 and the bronzing is much less.