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Author Topic: How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...  (Read 1048 times)

DavidPalermo

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How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...
« on: December 29, 2019, 02:52:59 pm »

Hi all,

I’m looking for a chart or web page etc that shows how black and white film "sees" (interprets) colors. Tri-X may interpret "blue" as a different shade of gray than say ILFORD FP4 etc...

I realize that different film interprets color in slightly different ways but I would think maybe Kodak or Ilford might have info on this.

I am finding it difficult to find info about this. I have attached an informal test I did with ILFORD FP4 Plus vs digital... I notice that the blues are a bit different between digital and film as shown here.  They differ more so than the other colors. Using the pipet tool with the Info panel shows the different RGB luminance values. if the difference was more than about 30 I marked it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 03:05:55 pm by DavidPalermo »
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Aram Hăvărneanu

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Re: How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2019, 03:21:20 pm »

The spectral sensitivity is (usually) documented in the spec sheet of the film. E.g. for Ilford FP4 Plus: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1919/product/690.

Kodak Tri-X 400: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/f4017_TriX.pdf.
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DavidPalermo

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Re: How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2019, 03:28:08 pm »

The spectral sensitivity is (usually) documented in the spec sheet of the film. E.g. for Ilford FP4 Plus: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1919/product/690.

Kodak Tri-X 400: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/f4017_TriX.pdf.

Right I see that but how do you apply that to say, blue? or green? I'm working on simulating film using a digital camera. I'm shooting a scene with film and digital using a ColorChecker and notice the grays vary between digital and film and how each interprets color. Maybe it's not possible to do a close simulation... I don't know yet. Presets I have used just aren't accurate it seems. Nik Effects, Exposure X5 etc... they don't look like the real thing from what I can see.
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Lessbones

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Re: How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2019, 04:54:09 pm »

you'd have to take into account your method of digitizing the film as well if you want to have an accurate simulation of that particular workflow--

I think you're better off doing exactly what you seem to be doing there--  use lightroom or some other such tool and adjust the HSL sliders until you can get a pretty close match to your colorchecker, then save that as a preset.  Don't leave out some sort of grain, which you probably should apply before you start tweaking, as it will raise the perceived levels of the shadows.  Those two shots you've got there seem kind of perfect to make this type of preset, but it's also going to be very scene/lighting specific, so it'll only really feel "right" when used in that exact setup (sunny clear day with a lot of contrast).  If you were to, say, make a preset for Sunny Day, Overcast, Indoor Tungsten, Indoor LED, Indoor Fluorescent, you'd have a pretty good set of custom presets for that film type through your own camera, processing, and digitizing setup.
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kirkt

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Re: How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2019, 10:18:29 pm »

Also, take a look at this application, called True Grain:

http://www.grubbasoftware.com

which has an extensive set of B&W film simulation controls, including spectral sensitivity curves, sampled grain and dynamic range curves.  The application also permits you to apply a color filter to your B&W conversion, displaying the change in the spectral sensitivity.

It may give you some ideas about how you approach your method.

kirk
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DavidPalermo

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Re: How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2019, 10:48:04 pm »

Thank you Kirk! I remember checking that software out years ago but I had forgotten about it. I did a quick test here... it's pretty accurate except for the bright pink square - I don't know much about the graphs yet but if I can learn to alter them I might be in business!  Thanks again!

UPDATE: I was able to fix the pink square by using the spectral response curve in TrueGrain. Works great!

Also, take a look at this application, called True Grain:

http://www.grubbasoftware.com

which has an extensive set of B&W film simulation controls, including spectral sensitivity curves, sampled grain and dynamic range curves.  The application also permits you to apply a color filter to your B&W conversion, displaying the change in the spectral sensitivity.

It may give you some ideas about how you approach your method.

kirk
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 12:40:56 am by DavidPalermo »
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kirkt

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Re: How various B&W film "sees" color vs digital...
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2019, 01:07:09 pm »

Great!  The prevailing illumination in your scene may affect the response of the sensor/film, so you will probably have to develop a way to account for that, beyond ad hoc tuning on a per-image basis.

Have fun!

kirk
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