Pizza wheel marks on P800

[Schmoe]

I've owned my P800 for a couple years now (so I'm out of warranty) and I've been an occasional printer.  I've seen discussions about pizza wheel / pinwheel marks on the P800, but I didn't think it affected me.  I never noticed anything in my prints.  That is, until I printed a dark b&w photo on Baryta paper and it jumped out at me.  I was wondering if somehow over time I *developed* this problem.  But then I went back and checked older prints and it's nearly everywhere.  On pretty much every PK paper I've checked, including ones from Epson (even simple ones like Ultra Premium Luster).

But here's the thing, except for that dark b&w photo I mentioned, it's almost impossible to see the marks unless I shine a very bright, harsh, source at an extreme angle.  In normal viewing situations, for all my prints except that dark one, they look fine.  Obviously, I was none the wiser this entire time.

And that leads me to my question: is what I'm seeing normal?  I always thought that other threads on this topic in the past had to do with very obvious marks.  In my case, photos look fine, except when viewed in that very particular way.  Does this just 'come with the territory' or do I have an issue here?

I'm not sure how to feel about this, because it took me so long to even notice, so clearly it's not *that* huge of a deal.  I've been very happy with my prints otherwise.  It's just that now that I know about it, it's going to irritate me to no end... *sigh*...

Attached images:
* The b&w photo is printed on Red River Palo Duro Satin (not the Baryta paper I mentioned above but it still shows quite prominently here)
* The color photo is printed on Epson Ultra Premium Luster

[bns]

Check papr thickness setting, platen gap. May need longer hold time between sweeps.
Some paper swell due to ink.

cheers, Boudewijn Swanenburg

[Majohnson]

I had the same experience a few years back. It was only when I started doing black and white photos on Canon Baryta and carefully viewing the print under light that I started to notice the pizza wheel marking. I tried adjusting paper thickness,  slowing the time between sweeps etc but it made no difference.

Unfortunately for me, once I started seeing it I couldn't stop and it really annoyed me. It was present on all semi-gloss / luster papers that I used. I got a replacement printer from Epson as they confirmed the issue but the second unit displayed the same behaviour. It seems to me to be inherent in the design with the metal wheels that feed the paper.

In my case, I think wasn't prepared to provided prints to people with the pizza wheel markings. I'm using a Canon Pro 1000 now and the vacuum feeding systems seems much better.

[deanwork]

If it’s subtle like that I believe a couple of light coats of one of the uv solvent sprays like Premiere Art should cover it. And the print will prolly look better too and be more durable.

But yea adjusting the platen gap is the first thing to try then the ink limits.

I had the same experience a few years back. It was only when I started doing black and white photos on Canon Baryta and carefully viewing the print under light that I started to notice the pizza wheel marking. I tried adjusting paper thickness,  slowing the time between sweeps etc but it made no difference.

Unfortunately for me, once I started seeing it I couldn't stop and it really annoyed me. It was present on all semi-gloss / luster papers that I used. I got a replacement printer from Epson as they confirmed the issue but the second unit displayed the same behaviour. It seems to me to be inherent in the design with the metal wheels that feed the paper.

In my case, I think wasn't prepared to provided prints to people with the pizza wheel markings. I'm using a Canon Pro 1000 now and the vacuum feeding systems seems much better.

[Schmoe]

Check papr thickness setting, platen gap. May need longer hold time between sweeps.
Some paper swell due to ink.

Thanks. This is the first thing I tried. It didn’t help. In fact, I did this with the Palo Duro Satin luster paper which is not that thick and isn’t supposed to need non-default settings (the b&w photo in my previous post). I set Wide gap, max time between sweeps, bidirectional printing off, and 6 mm thickness and the marks still appeared.

[Schmoe]

If it’s subtle like that I believe a couple of light coats of one of the uv solvent sprays like Premiere Art should cover it. And the print will prolly look better too and be more durable.

Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll try it and report back. I think you may be on to something, as one of my older b&w prints on Baryta that I checked I really struggled to find the marks (I thought maybe it was because it wasn’t as dark), and I believe that photo was sprayed.

[mearussi]

Black (or dark) prints show up flaws better than light prints, and Baryta scratches very easily. You put them both together which is why you can now see the pizza wheel marks. If they're just on the edges then you can get rid of them by printing smaller, though that negates having a full 17" printer.

Your only other alternative is to buy a printer that uses vacuum advance instead of pizza wheels (for instance, I think the Epson P5000 uses a vacuum as do all large format printers 24" and up).

[Schmoe]

If it’s subtle like that I believe a couple of light coats of one of the uv solvent sprays like Premiere Art should cover it. And the print will prolly look better too and be more durable.

Unfortunately I just tried this and it didn’t fix it. Hard to say if it helped reduce the problem.

[Conner999]

I had this issue with our 3800. NOTHING worked short of removing the pizza wheels and then papers started scuffing on the plastic bits on the 'ceiling' of the paper path. We tried Platen gap, timing, up to dampening the backs of paper sheets - and every other suggested remedy. Nada.
 
Aside from some papers being more delicate, many papers swell under heavy ink load, creating a wave-like pattern when viewed from the front as it emerges from the printer.  The peaks of those waves then contact wheels and all sorts of nasty bits just enough to mark. 

Given many have no issue while others are plagued with marks,  I suspect it varies partially by individual printer due to manufacturing tolerances - then add in any of 101 other variables.

It got so frustrating, we eventually gave up using PK papers on the 3800.

It doesn't help you, but we since replaced it with a Pro-1000 and are delighted with it and have since become Canon printer fans.  I'd also never own another printer w/o vacuum hold-down.

One final option is to try the front load as if it were a heavy stock.

[Schmoe]

Every thread I’ve come across showed that the problem was not fixed by getting a replacement from Epson. I’m starting to wonder if it’s less an issue about manufacturing tolerances and more an issue with relative humidity.

[deanwork]

I do think drying time could be a major factor. Some printers software allow you to slow down printing between head passes and even pause the head while ink dries.

Then there are ink limit settings, such as with qtr, etc,  that limit the total ink load in the shadows.

Are you printing on the slowest speed, such as highest resolution 2880 at single pass ( uni directional.)

Humidity can be a factor. I would try using a small electric heater with a blower.

I had this same problem with my 3880 and the Pictorico OHP film for inkjet negatives.

I never solved it, but I never tried using a forced air dryer.

John

Every thread I’ve come across showed that the problem was not fixed by getting a replacement from Epson. I’m starting to wonder if it’s less an issue about manufacturing tolerances and more an issue with relative humidity.

[Schmoe]

Are you printing on the slowest speed, such as highest resolution 2880 at single pass ( uni directional.)

I’ve tried every setting that slows down printing. No dice. May experiment with a blow drier, but that to me seems fraught with other issues, such as blowing dust into your printer internals.

[unesco]

Pizza wheel marks appear on most P800 and 3880. If they are not strongly visible (under strong light e.g. direct sun or light source just near the picture), they can be acceptable. I do not know what is your case. In mine such a marks appear only on thick baryta papers in very dark areas (IGFS, IGFG, HM Rag Baryta, Epson Traditional). Virtually not visible neither on standard gloss/pearl photo papers nor any matt ones so the effect is probably related to delicate surface of barytas.
One more thing comes to my mind, that I have not tried yet - using flat paper handling like for thick board possible in P800. It will put less stress on the sheet so maybe less pressure for paper-wheel contact.

[Schmoe]

Pizza wheel marks appear on most P800 and 3880. If they are not strongly visible (under strong light e.g. direct sun or light source just near the picture), they can be acceptable. I do not know what is your case. In mine such a marks appear only on thick baryta papers in very dark areas (IGFS, IGFG, HM Rag Baryta, Epson Traditional). Virtually not visible neither on standard gloss/pearl photo papers nor any matt ones so the effect is probably related to delicate surface of barytas.

I've seen it on all my photo black papers I've tried, but it was the Baryta where it really jumped out at me and made me realize I had the problem.  To be honest, most of the time you don't really notice it unless you're really scrutinizing.  Since I'm not selling prints, I'm probably going to just live with it as is... it's just the thought of knowing that issue exists that annoys the crap out of me.  I haven't seen it with matte papers.

One more thing comes to my mind, that I have not tried yet - using flat paper handling like for thick board possible in P800. It will put less stress on the sheet so maybe less pressure for paper-wheel contact.

Yes, this is one of the next things I'm going to try.  But presumably this will only for for large-ish sized papers.

[Schmoe]

uff... not a good sign when you contact support and tell them the problem you're having and everything you've tried to resolve it, and they reply asking you to try the very same thing you just told them you tried... *sigh*...

[mearussi]

uff... not a good sign when you contact support and tell them the problem you're having and everything you've tried to resolve it, and they reply asking you to try the very same thing you just told them you tried... *sigh*...

People have been having pizza wheel marks from their small printers since they were invented and no one has come up with a solution. This is just something to expect from any (possibly every) printer without a vacuum advance, but the Epson 3800/3880/P800 are notorious for it. The best you can hope for is to minimize it.

[SharonVL]

uff... not a good sign when you contact support and tell them the problem you're having and everything you've tried to resolve it, and they reply asking you to try the very same thing you just told them you tried... *sigh*...

Epson used to have great support by phone. When you called, you talked to someone who was very knowledgeable. That is no longer true, unfortunately.

Sharon

[Schmoe]

One more thing comes to my mind, that I have not tried yet - using flat paper handling like for thick board possible in P800. It will put less stress on the sheet so maybe less pressure for paper-wheel contact.

So I just tried this.  You can tell the P800 you're printing on Poster Board when in fact you aren't, and it appears that in that case it doesn't engage the pizza wheel rollers.  The downside, however, is that I am forced to give up 1.5 inches (combined) of top/bottom non-printable margin.  That might actually be fine in many cases.

Also, I came across this article, which gives me another idea to try, but I'm not very keen on the idea of opening up my printer, shoving objects into it, and leaving it un-assembled indefinitely.

https://medium.com/@joswr1ght/epson-p800-pizza-wheel-hack-981275867af0

[Conner999]

You can try it, it might work.

We went as far as to physically removed the pizza wheels from our 3800 and while we stopped the PW marks, the paper then just started to brush against bits of plastic on the top of the paper feed, leaving 1-3 fine scratches along the length of PK prints with heavy ink load. I guess the PWs were the first thing the swollen paper hit and when they were gone...

[Schmoe]

I finally called Epson support today after their email support decided I need to talk to someone directly.  The rep was kind but not terribly knowledgeable on this matter.  He was unaware this issue existed.  After I told him everything I tried, he didn't have any suggestions to offer.  He put me on hold to discuss the matter with the technicians, after which he said this is a known behavior of the printer and there's nothing that can be done about it, but if I was under warranty they'd be happy to switch out my printer for another to see if it fixes the problem.  Unfortunately I'm not in my warranty period, and anyway from everything I've heard it seems doubtful that would solve my problem.

It seems to me the fact that they know the issue exists, but don't offer a specific remedy for it - even if that means taking it to a service center (offering to replace the entire unit is just honoring their warranty obligations and nothing more, me thinks) - implies a tacit acknowledgement of an inherent defect.  smh

I just print for myself, mostly, so I guess I'll just learn to get used to this defect.  It appears that the only way to use this printer, if you plan to exhibit and/or sell, is to use the thick media mode.