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Author Topic: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants  (Read 1347 times)

Doug Gray

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Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« on: December 12, 2019, 12:24:29 am »

In another thread finearttelier noted strange behavior using custom (non D50) illuminants when making and using profiles.

He discovered a major behavior change in I1Profiler which produces profiles unusable for soft proofing (Perc., Sat., and Rel. intents) and wildly wrong when printing Absolute Colorimetric.

Oddly, soft proofing seems to work in Absolute Colorimetric but what gets printed is wildly off.

The change can best be demonstrated by printing neutral (gray) colors. A neutral color has the advantage that it can be printed with a fairly flat spectral response on modern printers with a multitude of gray inks. And it also, by definition, retains it's neutral appearance under any illuminant since the CIE xy coordinate is unchanged and matches the illuminant's white point.

So I took the C4 patch on a standard colorchecker as a reference and printed the gray patch on MP101 matte with my Pro1000 using 3 profiles. These were made with standard illuminants D50, F2, and A, from the same measured patch set.

The Lab value for the patch was entered as L*=67, and a*=b*=0.

Here are the Lab values of the prints using the three profiles from each version of I1Profiler:

For version 1.7 of I1Profiler
D50:  L*=67, a*=0, b*=0
F2:  (4200K CCT) L*=67, a*=0, b*=0
A: (2800K CCT)  L*=67, a*=-1, b*=1

For version 3.0.0 and 3.1.1 of I1Profiler
D50:  L*=67, a*=0, b*=0
F2:  (4200K CCT) L*=67, a*=3, b*=9
A: (2800K CCT)  L*=67, a*=16, b*=35


The orangish red color is a long, long way from neutral gray and under tungsten it is really very red compared to the C4 patch on an adjacent Colorchecker.

One side effect of this change in I1Profiler is soft proofing reverses things and displays the "neutral" patch that actually prints red with a strong blue cast (using show paper color) . Completely the opposite of what gets printed.

But there's another problem that makes this option completely useless. V1.7 I1Profiler was useful for making prints that would be used in office environments which typically use F2 fluorescent lighting. These have very little red wavelengths and the result is that red colors look very subdued and magneta/pinks look kind of bluish. The older I1Profiler could compensate for this by selecting the F2 illuminant when making profiles. Under daylight the red/orange colors look pretty exaggerated but when hung in an office with crappy lighting they look quite good. This was the purpose of this option. The V3 I1Profiler screws this up. It produces essentially the same (aside from rounding errors) prints as just using D50.

So this option in V3 has been rendered useless.

XRite: Please fix this.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 06:02:18 pm by Doug Gray »
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Doug Gray

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 07:34:45 pm »

This shows that V3 of I1Profiler fails to boost the reds (due to low reds in office lighting) while working correctly in V1.7

These 3 images are the classic Kodak Disc reference image as matte MP101 prints using Rel. Col. with BPC. The highly saturated reds on the right hand image boost the attenuated reds in the F2 office lighting that the V1.7 profile was made for. The two on the left are both made with V3 and there is no material difference between them though actually soft proofing them shows a strong blue cast on the profile made with V3 and F2 illuminant.

Profiles made with D50 are identical between V3 and V1.7 in all modes.
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smilem

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2019, 04:50:52 pm »

What about last version 1.8.3?
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Doug Gray

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2019, 06:01:37 pm »

What about last version 1.8.3?

Just checked it.

Vers. 1.83 works correctly and the same as V1.7. I had used V1.7 because that was the last version I had used with an illuminant that wasn't D50. Problem occurs with the switch to V3.
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fineartelier

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2019, 06:54:53 pm »

Just got an email from X-Rite Switzerland: There had been a change inside the profiling engine (i1Prism) in V 3.1.1. (not V 3.0.0). This change was meant to optimize treatment of channel yellow, especially on papers with OBAs. Could have led to some unwanted side effects... They will check for bug and (hopefully) report back.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2019, 12:22:56 am »

Just got an email from X-Rite Switzerland: There had been a change inside the profiling engine (i1Prism) in V 3.1.1. (not V 3.0.0). This change was meant to optimize treatment of channel yellow, especially on papers with OBAs. Could have led to some unwanted side effects... They will check for bug and (hopefully) report back.

The Illuminant bug is in version 3.0.0 as well as V 3.1.1. V1.8.3 is the last version that implemented non-D50 illuminants correctly
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Dale Villeponteaux

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 11:32:13 am »

This thread saved me from changing to V 3x.
Will hold off untill issue rectified.

Thanks,
Dale
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Doug Gray

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2019, 12:15:22 pm »

This thread saved me from changing to V 3x.
Will hold off untill issue rectified.

Thanks,
Dale

A word of caution.

This affects very few users. Custom illuminants of other than D50 are not part of the iCC V2 or 4 specs. It's an extension XRite offers.

It's purpose is to provide more pleasing light when a print is going to be viewed in the light the profile is also made from. Examples are better looking prints in office settings with poor fluorescent lighting. Or when prints will be illuminated with LED lighting with low energy in the longer red wavelengths and/or especially cyans.

With higher CRI lighting the differences are subtle at most and may not even be observable side by side. For instance such a profile will benefit a lot when illuminated with F2 fluorescents. OTOH, There will be only tiny differences when F8 is the illuminant.

This is actually a rarely used feature and an indication of that is that it's been broken for a few months without someone (else besides Michael) raising hell.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 12:23:31 pm by Doug Gray »
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smilem

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2019, 07:50:59 pm »

Quote
This is actually a rarely used feature and an indication of that is that it's been broken for a few months without someone (else besides Michael) raising hell.

This should not be used as an excuse for a company that woke up after 7 years of merging (I should say buying) Gretagmacbeth and out of the blue they say our calibration was different and hey we noticed it after 7 years !!!

But what do i know after all gretagmacbeth made instruments in switzerland, and xrite in china go figure.

If anybody thinks consumer = customer, then sorry.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants V3.2 Fixed
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2020, 12:16:30 pm »

Just tested I1Profiler Version 3.2 and it fixes the rather gross illuminant problem introduced in V 3.0
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Doug Gray

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 10:20:24 am »

https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1profiler-i1publish_v3_2_0

Fixes multiple bugs in the Printer Quality workflow:
•Fixes issue where reports could not be generated for IDEAlliance and Fogra targets.
•Fixes issue where ISO 12647-7 test criteria were not reported correctly.
•Fixes issue where Japan Color targets could not be analyzed using live measurements.
Fixes issue where profiles created with non-D50 illuminants were built incorrectly.
•Fixes issue where Measure Reference workflows could not be saved for CMYK+N data.
•Additional bug fixes.

 
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rasworth

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 03:36:12 pm »

Per the xrite download section, it appears 3.1.1 is the latest version that is compatible with the i1Pro.  I'm presently on 1.8.3, should I upgrade?

Richard Southworth
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digitaldog

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 03:40:31 pm »

Per the xrite download section, it appears 3.1.1 is the latest version that is compatible with the i1Pro.  I'm presently on 1.8.3, should I upgrade?

Richard Southworth
What Rev of the unit do you have?
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Andrew Rodney
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rasworth

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2020, 07:24:19 pm »

I have a B non-uv cut and a D uv cut.

Richard Southworth
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digitaldog

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 07:27:22 pm »

I have a B non-uv cut and a D uv cut.

Richard Southworth
Yeah so if this is the original design, don't upgrade. I'm trying to get specific clarification from x-rite about the details but it appears those units will no longer function so hold off.
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Andrew Rodney
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rasworth

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2020, 04:28:25 pm »

I've given up on 3.2, asking if I should upgrade to 3.1.1, which appears compatible with my i1Pro, at least no warning message from Xrite.

Richard Southworth
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Doug Gray

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2020, 05:29:16 pm »

I've given up on 3.2, asking if I should upgrade to 3.1.1, which appears compatible with my i1Pro, at least no warning message from Xrite.

Richard Southworth

Just stick with 1.8.3. 3.0 and above until 3.2 makes using custom illuminants impossible. I haven't seen any other issues. V3 is really for support of I1Pro 3 with it's wide aperture and M3 (polarized version of M2).
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rasworth

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2020, 09:10:43 am »

So 3.0.x introduced issues, 3.2 fixed them but obsoleted my measuring devices.  I understand the need to stop support at some point for older equipment, but that should not be coupled with bug resolutions.  Strange (read "customer oblivious") company.

Richard Southworth
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GWGill

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2020, 03:08:18 am »

So 3.0.x introduced issues, 3.2 fixed them but obsoleted my measuring devices.  I understand the need to stop support at some point for older equipment, but that should not be coupled with bug resolutions.  Strange (read "customer oblivious") company.
I'm guessing that a judicious mix and match of older drivers and 3.2 profiler might make it work again. For someone who knows what they are doing of course....
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rasworth

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Re: Breaking Changes in I1Profiler w non-D50 Illuminants
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2020, 10:43:45 am »

I can play that game, but I think I'll leave it at 1.8.3, probably with a future release of Windows 10 it will cease operating, at which point I'll switch over to ArgyllCMS!  Maybe sooner!  Of course I'm assuming you'll continue support for my instruments.

Richard Southworth
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