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Author Topic: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile  (Read 680 times)

uimike

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Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« on: November 30, 2019, 04:42:17 pm »

Hi everyone, I have been playing around with ImagePrint (demo version, R.E.D) - and got a bit surprised with how different the results were printing a color portrait using it versus Lightroom.

The icc profile is the same Canson Infinity Barita in both cases - but the LR printout came out distinctly less red than it should be.

The ImagePrint output seemed spot-on (using controlled illumination to view prints).

I know IP does its own thing, taking control completely over, while LR will use Apple + Adobe facilities - but in both cases the icc is one and the same - so why would the results be different?  Also, PI's settings for the printer same as the ones in LR (paper size, type)

Printer is Epson P800, Mac Pro 2009 (upgraded to 5,1), Mojave.

Any thoughts?

Mike
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Rand47

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2019, 05:39:26 pm »

Hi everyone, I have been playing around with ImagePrint (demo version, R.E.D) - and got a bit surprised with how different the results were printing a color portrait using it versus Lightroom.

The icc profile is the same Canson Infinity Barita in both cases - but the LR printout came out distinctly less red than it should be.

The ImagePrint output seemed spot-on (using controlled illumination to view prints).

I know IP does its own thing, taking control completely over, while LR will use Apple + Adobe facilities - but in both cases the icc is one and the same - so why would the results be different?  Also, PI's settings for the printer same as the ones in LR (paper size, type)

Printer is Epson P800, Mac Pro 2009 (upgraded to 5,1), Mojave.

Any thoughts?

Mike

Mike,

You say that the ICC profile is “the same.”  I was under the impression that IP creates their own ICC profiles.  Can you explain further?

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

uimike

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2019, 05:55:59 pm »

Hi Rand,
In ImagePrint you can choose to let the printer do the work, or you can choose ImagePrint itself - regardless, it asks you for a profile - which you can leave at "Automatic" - as I understand should be used with printer manufacturer's papers. In that menu I selected the CIBP profile for the P800.

Mike
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uimike

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2019, 06:00:00 pm »

The profile I used came from Canson. When selected to print from the PrintImage RIP it was spot on. The option if letting the Mac ColorSync + Lightroom + the very same profile was off...
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markgunion

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2019, 03:24:36 am »

ImagePrint (IP) through version 10 came with access to a bank of thousands of profiles (several per paper) which were made expressly for use with IP.   You could also make your own, or have profiles made for you, to use with IP as long as the profiles complied with IP's requirements. 

Starting with the current version, IP comes in two flavors, "Black," and "Red."    IP-Black is essentially IP-10.   IP-Red is said to have the essential interface functionality of IP-Black, but has several important differences from IP-Black under the hood.   One difference is that IP-Red is BYOP (Bring Your Own Profile).   You can use the paper manufacturer's profile, make your own, or have one custom made for you; however you accomplish it, getting the printer profile in place is your responsibility.    Another difference of note between the two is that IP-Black works with only the Epson and Canon printers listed on the website, while IP-Red is supposed to work with "any" printer because, unlike IP-Black, IP-Red uses the printer manufacturer's drivers.   I have used IP-9 and IP-10 for years, but have never seen IP-Red in operation, so I can't attest to how similar/dissimilar it is to IP-Black in actual use.    (Further information here:   www.colorbytesoftware.com )

As far as the difference in color between the two printing methods (LR versus IP-Red), I don't have a certain answer.   I have never printed from LR, although I've followed along with others as they have (I used to print from Photoshop, and found it so aggravating that I spent the money for IP).   I recall that there are many places in the LR printing set up (and also in the Photoshop printing setup, for that matter) where a simple box click (present or absent) makes a big difference.    For sure, if there is a box marked "Printer manages colors", you want that box OFF; what you want is "Application manages colors" (or words to that effect).    Also, make sure that LR doesn't change your selected profile at some point (without telling you, of course) before you print.   Also make sure that Rendering Intent and Black Point Compensation are the same in both LR and IP.   Further than those warnings, I'm of no particular use to you on the color question, unfortunately.   Good Luck!!!

Mark G.
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Rand47

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2019, 10:10:46 am »

Mark & Mike,

Thanks for the education.  Much appreciated. 

Mike,   I’ll be watching this thread with interest and hopefully learn some more along the way.  Hope you get an answer / find a reason for the difference. 

Rand
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uimike

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint SOLVED (user error)
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2019, 02:16:34 pm »

SOLVED (user error)

@Rand: thanks!

@Mark - thanks!! - that did it.

User error, it turns out. I just forgot to check - at the bottom of the LR print panel, so easy to miss if you are getting rusty, is the Color Management panel, and I am sure I forgot to specify the profile there, and the intent. So I was setting the profile in the Print Setup dialog, and checking "Color Sync" there, and forgot that it doesn't mean LR will control color - unless you turn it off in the Color Management Panel. Feeling a bit stupid right now  :-[

And, I also understand IP's simplicity much better. One place, that's it.

Very grateful,

Mike
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Rand47

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 10:00:30 am »

LR’s print templates really help in this regard.  I create them to “pre set” all the parameters for a given paper except for resolution and rendering intent.  That way paper size, orientation, starting margins, paper feed, color management off in driver, proper ICC profile, print quality options/paper caliper setting, etc., are all “locked down” with a single click.  All that remains is to assess the native resolution at any given image size and set resolution appropriately, and then set the rendering intent to whatever was chosen while soft proofing (wish LR could carry that over from the soft proof function!).   I’ll create multiple print templates based on size and orientation, “per paper type.”  Speeds up my workflow and eliminates “most” of my typical operator error!

And now a question.  Now that you found what was causing such an obvious difference between LR print module and RIP, how would you characterize the difference in output quality?   I “get” using a RIP in doing production work re layout ease for multiple prints, etc.  But, “so far” have not felt the need for one-off fine art prints for output quality reasons alone.  What is your experience?

Rand
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Doug Gray

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 11:46:14 am »

Doesn't ImagePrint Red (unlike Black) just you the OEM's device driver and hence the same profiles one would use in LR and PS?  If so wouldn't the print color quality be the same?
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uimike

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2020, 08:24:49 pm »

LR’s print templates really help in this regard.

And now a question.  Now that you found what was causing such an obvious difference between LR print module and RIP, how would you characterize the difference in output quality?   I “get” using a RIP in doing production work re layout ease for multiple prints, etc.  But, “so far” have not felt the need for one-off fine art prints for output quality reasons alone.  What is your experience?

Rand

Yep, printe templates: makes total sense, thanks Rand - I have started doing that.
The output quality difference: I saw some degradation in the image, visible as noise/blotchiness - but most notably the colors were very off - and everything that was supposed to be red(ish) became greenish. So rosy skin tones, for example, became visibly less rosy, towards yellow-greenish.
Once the mistake was spotted, outputting from LR was super satisfactory - and no, I don't feel the need for the R.I.P so far either. One thing I did notice though, and I am sure it's me, not ImagePrint - I prefer now what came out of LR. The paper is Canson Baryta Infinity Photographique, and I am using Canson's profiles, with the settings to luster paper. I should investigate further.
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uimike

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Re: Confused about big difference LR x ImagePrint using same profile
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2020, 08:27:38 pm »

Doesn't ImagePrint Red (unlike Black) just you the OEM's device driver and hence the same profiles one would use in LR and PS?  If so wouldn't the print color quality be the same?

Doug, in Red I could choose the Canson profile for CIBP, and apart from my obvious mistake in LR (rendering intent, etc), the results are close - but I still prefer now the result from LR. It is possible I am not skilled enough to get the best results out of IP :-)
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