Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?  (Read 1189 times)

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« on: November 28, 2019, 07:25:55 am »

I'm fairly new to technical cameras, but I just love them. I've been slowly collecting up some previous gen lenses as I'm on a budget as a non-commercial enthusiast. I really like the Schneider lens designs as they're more compact. I've read that they play better with newer BSI sensors. However, I know they are (for the most part) out of the LF lens business.

I'm curious to know if any of their digital lenses are suitable for newer sensors, such as the Sony A7r IV or the Phase One 150MP. I see a decent list of Rodenstock lenses in this article: https://phaseoneiq4.com/lenses-for-150-megapixels/ Could someone list a few SK digital MF lenses, if any, that should resolve for these newer sensors with less than 4μ photosites?
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3976
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2019, 08:13:38 am »

SK35mm
SK60mm
SK90mm
SK120mm

All can resolve to the IQ4. Sadly Schneider no longer makes any of their APO Digital lenses. They quit making them several years ago. Some can still be found used.

Paul C
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4161
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2019, 03:46:28 pm »

SK35mm
SK60mm
SK90mm
SK120mm

All can resolve to the IQ4. Sadly Schneider no longer makes any of their APO Digital lenses. They quit making them several years ago. Some can still be found used.

Paul C

I respectfully disagree with the inclusion of the sk 35mm digitar. That lens has *very* limited movement before it clearly degrades at 150mp.

Of course it’s all relative, subjective, and dependent a bit on lens sample variation, especially in older and/or used lenses.

The 60 XL Super Digitar and 120ASPH are the best two lenses from that legacy lineup.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 04:10:51 pm by Doug Peterson »
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3976
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2019, 09:39:13 pm »

Fully agree the 35mm SK has limited movement if any.

However it’s still very good on center, at least mine is. Is sharp, light weight, and much less distortion than the Rodenstock 32 or 40mm.

Depending on scene you can shoot without the CF. If lot of sky is involved, CF would be advantageous.

Paul C
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4008
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2019, 12:11:08 pm »

I have to add my two cents here. 

How comfortable you feel using these lenses really depends on the final usage and image size.  If you do big prints, like landscape photographers, you may be a little hesitant in using these lenses. 

However, if you are like me where most of my images are used on the web, and almost none are ever printed at full res, I think the 35mm would be fine.  At the end of the day, it is a compromise.  Do you want a lens with almost no distortion that is light weight, albeit needs a CF & may not be as sharp at the edge, or do you want a very sharp lens with distortion that is large and heavy? 
Logged
Joe Kitchen
www.josephmkitchen.com

"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
“Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.”  William Faulkner

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2019, 06:50:22 pm »

So it sounds like it could be a compromise of portability vs quality? I wanted to know if that was the case, or if it was more subtle than that. I’m still not sure ;)

I would put portability above quality in some cases, but if shooting with the IQ4150, that would be rare. Would others agree that for detailed landscapes, they are not the best option?
Logged

stevenfr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 657
    • Steven Friedman Landscape Photography
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2019, 07:13:34 pm »

I would not compromise on quality if your goal is large prints. I print my work at large print sizes for galleries and corporate clients.

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2019, 10:06:02 pm »

Yes, totally makes sense. I’m just asking if it is truly a compromise of quality, or just a different look. They’re not that old, are they?

I just can’t seem to get a straight answer.
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3976
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2019, 11:18:14 pm »

I believe I gave  as straight an answer as you can get.

The 35mm is fine centered.

The 60mm is great to 15mm of shift.

The 120mm will easily go to 20mm of shift.

All on IQ4. No loss of quality.

Paul C
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4161
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2019, 09:02:53 am »

Yes, totally makes sense. I’m just asking if it is truly a compromise of quality, or just a different look. They’re not that old, are they?

I just can’t seem to get a straight answer.

You’ve gotten good references above.

The only full and complete answer is to work with your Phase One dealer to test such a combo. Failing that, to send you raw files from their testing thereof.

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2019, 10:16:38 am »

Thanks, Paul, and others. I guess straight answer was the wrong term. You gave one, but others appeared to be saying something different  ;)
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3976
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2019, 12:19:27 pm »

Sorry, did not seem to be harsh, late night.

More info:.

I have used the 35mm SK for years now, on the P45+, IQ160, IQ260, IQ150, IQ180, 3100, and 4150.  On the CCD backs, even up to IQ180, the 35mm SK was
an excellent lens, light weight, and with the CF shift able to about 8mm.  On the 3100, due to really harsh Lens cast issues I only tried it once and then moved to the Rodenstock 32mm.  The color cast IMO was just too damaging to the image.  I never sold the lens, and when I upgraded to the 4150, decided to try it. I was pleasantly surprised by the results.  At F 11 (issues of diffraction and the like don't bother me as much but I am a huge fan of fine detail), the 35SK with the CF was really a great lens.  It's not as sharp as a 32mm Rodie but it's close enough that I can easily sharpen it in post to get where I want to be.  The 32mm Rodie, is massive, much more delicate and has huge distortion issues (never have understood why more photographers don't notice it.  As you approach the edge of the image objects towards the edge become flattened and elongated and if you shift it all the effect is worse.  I have seen this same distortion on 3 different 32mm Rodies, so I feel it's just part of the lens design.  The 35mm Sk will not show this.  But it also has really no room to shift on the 4150 at all.  So for me it's a great lens to use for a pano, where I am on center the entire time and just panning across the scene. Without the CF, you gain 2 stops or so of light, but you will start to see color cast issues more noticeable and issues of vignetting, but the LCC process will take the vast majority of that out.

The 60mm Schneider, really is an excellent lens on the 4150, on center or shifted to 15mm.  I have the CF for the lens, but have found that most times I no longer need it.  I still will take an LCC series at the beginning of a shoot, but no longer take an LCC after each frame, as the 4150 just has no color cast with this lens, thus all you are doing is correcting light falloff and a base set of LCC's will fix this.

The 90mm Schneider, I have not used, but have read plenty of reports from owners of it that use it on the 4150 and have experienced the same results as the 60mm.

The 120mm Schneider, (one reason I would not consider moving to the XT) is just one of those lenses if you can find it, and can afford it, buy it.  Schneider only made these towards the end of their digital lens run but it's optically a wonderful lens.  Again light, tiny and as sharp as any optic I have used.  You can shift it well out to 20mm.  As any medium telephoto lens, it has a limited DOF, some of which can be regained with tilt.  It needs no CF and color cast is non existent as is light fall off, net no LCC will be needed.  You will need a back extension if you use an Arca system, Cambo apparently makes a mount for the lens without a back extension, actually they make it both ways. 

I have also been told that the 28mm Schneider, which was very limited on the CCD backs, and trouble some on the 3100 seems to perform well on the 4150 also.

All of this is based on my actual use of these lenses in the field.

Sincerely
Paul C
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2019, 01:20:47 pm »

I really appreciate the details. Incredibly useful info from the field.
Logged

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2019, 06:02:40 pm »

Anyone have any experience with the Apo Digitar 150 5.6?
Logged

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2019, 12:06:32 pm »

28mm XL Super Digitar?
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3976
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2019, 01:42:31 pm »

Digital Transition, I  believe has re-tested the 28mm XL since the release of the IQ4.  Their results were positive, and might have been published on their main site, or in a blog write up.

Paul C
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4008
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2019, 10:58:07 am »

Here is an image taken with the IQ4-150 with the SK 28mm Super Digitar.  I captured this image with about 12mm of shift at f/11 and had the center filter on the lens.  The first image has both lens cast and light falloff corrections being applied in post.  The 2nd, I turned off the lens cast correction.  The 3rd has both the lens cast and light falloff corrections turned off.  (As you can see, even with the CF, light fall is fairly large.  Also, light falloff tends to be worse with smaller pixels.) 
Logged
Joe Kitchen
www.josephmkitchen.com

"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
“Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.”  William Faulkner

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4008
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2019, 11:05:38 am »

Here are some screen captures at 100%.  For the most part, the lens's sharpness holds up and has a fairly large range of DoF on the back.  The exception is the last image, where it is somewhat soft.  However, I attribute this to that area of the room being very close to the camera and outside the DoF. 

Additionally, as you can see in that last pic, the noise from light falloff is manageable and not that bad. 

On my IQ260, corner noise was a bit worse but the real difference was the lens cast.  There was more of it on the 260 and cross talk became noticeable on the far right. 
Logged
Joe Kitchen
www.josephmkitchen.com

"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
“Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.”  William Faulkner

Akaru

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: What SK lenses are suitable for < 4 micron sensors?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2019, 02:26:05 pm »

Thanks for sharing, Joe. That’s quite a bit of falloff/cast. I should lift you of such a burden and take that lens off your hands ;)

Anyone have experience with the APO-Digitar150mm/5.6 on an IQ4150?
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up