Photoshop CC 2020 - Adds 32bit Curves ...

[kirkt]

So... Adobe just quietly rolled out PS CC 2020, with no fanfare, just a notification in my CC Desktop App that I had updates.  One terrific new feature is the inclusion of 32bit Curves (they also added 32 bit brightness/contrast) adjustment layers.  Yay, i thought!  It has only taken over a decade!  What I cannot understand is the implementation of the new tool - the input and output values are 0-255... seems like this was just and afterthought, with no real desire to make this an actual, useable, 32bit workflow tool.  32bit values are typically unbounded, or bounded between 0 and 1 - if I have a scene with a large range of contrast and I want to target my adjustments to some range that is orders of magnitude different than the min or the max in the image, it may comprise a pixel to two of the curves dialog histogram - how is this useful?  Affinity Photo has had unbounded curves adjustment layers since their earliest version and you can specify the input bounds (range) of the curve.

Oh well, better than nothing, I suppose but why roll out something like this and not do it right? 

I do not understand Adobe.

kirk

[digitaldog]

What I cannot understand is the implementation of the new tool - the input and output values are 0-255... seems like this was just and afterthought, with no real desire to make this an actual, useable, 32bit workflow tool.
kirk

So yes, you're affecting "32 bit" data but the visuals are 'truncated' to 8-bits per color scale (0-255), just like what you see when working in high bit data with their Histogram. If you had a single level even representing 16-bit data, the Histogram would be HUGE and perhaps not even fit on many displays, so they again, truncate this visually despite what is happening to the high bit data 'under the hood'.
Does the user really need to 'see' billions of possible device values to edit the image? Adobe thinks not.

[kirkt]

So yes, you're affecting "32 bit" data but the visuals are 'truncated' to 8-bits per color scale (0-255), just like what you see when working in high bit data with their Histogram. If you had a single level even representing 16-bit data, the Histogram would be HUGE and perhaps not even fit on many displays, so they again, truncate this visually despite what is happening to the high bit data 'under the hood'.
Does the user really need to 'see' billions of possible device values to edit the image? Adobe thinks not.

I was not commenting on the need to map a 32bit file into some displayable range for rendering the image to a standard display - the 32bit data can contain values that can vary by orders of magnitude, and the user may want to inspect or target specific values in a specific range, regardless of how Photoshop chooses to render the "visuals" - i.e., the image that those data represent. Unlike 8 or 16 bit data ("high bit"), 32bit data can also be unbounded - there is no definition of "white" in 32bit data.  You don't need a histogram that is physically a mile long, just one that is useful - to the user.  What level in the unbounded (or even bounded) file am I accessing in the new Curves tool?  That is the problem - why provide a tool that is of no use?  It seems like an afterthought.

It would be more useful if the user was presented with the actual input/output values of the 32bit data on the histogram (not display pixel values) as well as permitted to specify the lower and upper bound of the curve dialog - perhaps it would be useful if the user were also able to specify the interval/resolution of the histogram binning.  This would effectively permit the user to "zoom in" and inspect or target a specific range of data or, at least, enter numerical transforms of the input > output values even if the curves histogram and dialog window were limited in size or range.

The fact that Adobe thinks that it is not useful to see what is going on "under the hood" (i.e., with the actual data itself) in a 32bit file, when that is precisely what the user is likely trying to understand, makes no sense.  Of course Adobe think that all of what I am saying is useful, they actually provide this type of approach to 32bit data manipulation in the "Levels" adjustment in After Effects, and have for years.  It would be nice if the spruced up the histogram and included this level of control in Photoshop.

kirk

[digitaldog]

The fact that Adobe thinks that it is not useful to see what is going on "under the hood" (i.e., with the actual data itself) in a 32bit file, when that is precisely what the user is likely trying to understand, makes no sense.

kirk

You asked about numeric feedback that is presented as 0-255 even though that isn't the underlying data (for curves or a Histogram). I explained Adobe's rational for not providing a massive amount of device values in that context within that feedback loop. You can 'see' what's going on under the hood numerically with the Info Palette set for the device value feedback you desire. Again, I question the usefulness of seeing the numeric difference between a pixel (or sampling of pixels you can control) between 13286 vs. 12971 as seen below but the facts remain, such values CAN be shown:

[kirkt]

Of course they can be "shown" and read out - but I cannot access them in the new Curves adjustment with any control.

kirk

[digitaldog]

Of course they can be "shown" and read out - but I cannot access them in the new Curves adjustment with any control.

kirk

And why was explained. It isn't at all a new behavior either considering how long Photoshop has operated with high bit data. So no, it's not an afterthought. It's just the way the designers decided to implement the feedback and there are some reasons explained as to why.

[lhodaniel]

I am NOT seeing the Object Selection Tool in the main toolbar along with Quick Select and Magic Wand as shown in the What's New. I do get it in the Select and Mask toolbar, but I'd rather use it in the main one. Any ideas why this is happening? I've tried several files. This is the Windows version.

Lloyd

[lhodaniel]

Got it. I had to reset my toolbar to defaults and it showed.

[Martin Kristiansen]

Not sure what impact 32 bit curves will make in my life. I will have to look at that. No I’m not being negative. Just ignorant.

There are definitely things that will speed up my work flow. Object selection for one, if it works as advertised. I am frequently making selections to apply selective corrections to images. Select, feather adjust, that type of thing. Let’s see if it speeds me up.

[kirkt]

And why was explained. It isn't at all a new behavior either considering how long Photoshop has operated with high bit data. So no, it's not an afterthought. It's just the way the designers decided to implement the feedback and there are some reasons explained as to why.

The conversion from 32bit to 16bit mode* includes a tone curve which does not exhibit the "clipping", etc. that the new, pseudo-8bit curve does.  You can even sample points in your 32bit file with the dropper+CMD key pressed and a point will be dropped on the 32bit curve for adjustment.  It also includes a 32bit luminance histogram with 1 EV tick marks along the horizontal axis.  This is the same 32bit histogram that appears in the Merge to HDR dialog for users to set the preview white point.  I would have figured that Adobe would have incorporated and extended these already exiting tools into a 32bit curve tool (including a 32bit histogram), instead they have not.  This is why I stated earlier that I do not understand Adobe.

In this forum thread:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/ongoing_saga_of_not_being_able_to_edit_32_bit_images_in_photoshop_cc?topic-reply-list[settings][filter_by]=all&topic-reply-list[settings][reply_id]=20249647#reply_20249647

Jeff Tranberry even responded a couple of months ago to one of the many exasperated PS users in a 5 year-old thread who would like to see 32bit tools to support their workflow by stating that:

"It's on our radar to make 32-bit a 1st class citizen across the app."

One can hope.  It has taken years to get this far, so hopefully they will actually put some effort into supporting Tranberry's statement.  Simple things like converting raw files to 32bit FP files in addition to 8 and 16 bit.  A useable curves tool, and useable filters that actually process the 32bit floating point data properly (like blur, etc.). 

I understand that not everyone uses 32bit files for their workflow and that this is probably low on the priority list, but if one does use a 32bit pipeline, it is inefficient to have to go back and forth between editing applications (even Adobe's own applications!) and environments because of Photoshop's lack of 32bit support.  So here is a move by Adobe to start expanding their support for 32bit data and it appears, as I stated previously, like an afterthought.

kirk

*See:
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/high-dynamic-range-images.html

[digitaldog]

Jeff Tranberry even responded a couple of months ago to one of the many exasperated PS users in a 5 year-old thread who would like to see 32bit tools to support their workflow by stating that:

"It's on our radar to make 32-bit a 1st class citizen across the app."

Look, I explained the way this currently works. And to some degree, why. I'm not justifying it shouldn’t be changed to suite your desires or those of others. I do question the need for seeing tiny differences in values as expressed and thus far ignored. But I wouldn't hold my breath on it happening anytime soon. Due to the history of how Histograms (and one does exist IN curves) is plotted over decades. You can of course fill out a feature request** for this (and maybe find it someday too in ACR/LR) but again, don't hold your breath.
** https://www.adobe.com/products/wishform.html
One can hope.

What I cannot understand is the implementation of the new tool - the input and output values are 0-255...
I do not understand Adobe.

But you asked a specific question in Post #1, I think I explained it as the product is currently operating.

[Lessbones]

The way I see it, this should take care of some banding/posterization issues that occur because of rounding errors in files that have lots of adjustment layers applied to them.  Basically, you can address the 32 bits of data by putting curve after curve after curve on top of each other if you needed to...

I established a workflow years ago of converting files to 16-bit (from before flattening when there were lots of layers, and in many cases it completely eliminates posterization on heavily retouched files.

I haven't tried the new version yet, but hopefully this means I could skip this step from now on.

**Edit:

Now i'm not sure that anything has changed in the back end, it just appears that you can use curves on 32-bit images.  So... really possibly this means very little to my applicaion

[Doug Gray]

For what it's worth if you have lots (over 1k) profiles you will find that the list of profiles for things like convert, assign, printing, or proofing gets cut off after just over 1k of profiles.

This probably doesn't affect many people.   But it's forced me to remove a lot of the experimental and old profile I have into a backup directory.