X1D vs. X1DII

[eronald]

I posted the following suggestion to the Hassy forum.
-------
Shutter precock / focus-lock firmware suggestion for use with optical finder.

 In spite of its many advantages, the X1D is hard to use for portrait/street because of the shutter lag, but there could be a workaround.

 The shutter lag serves to reset/clear the sensor, unless I'm wrong. The first click closes the shutter so the sensor can reset, the second click is the exposure, at click three the shutter reopens for viewing.

 So there could be a "portrait" mode, where pressing the shutter once locks focus and closes the shutter, clears the sensor, and then the next fulll press of the shutter fires the shutter AT ONCE. The intended use of this mode is one could

1. Preadjust focus and get the camera ready.
2. Hold the camera next to one's eye and look over it after framing, or use an optical finder, and watch the action or the model
3  The direct view with ones eyes or through an optical finder makes the capture AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOMENT.

  There would be no hardware mod to make here, just a firmware tweak to add this shutter-prepared mode, and maybe Hassy could even sell an optical accessory finder for some lenses just as Leica used to do.

 In the end this working mode would be a lot like the old rangefinder cameras, where one would first adjust the distance and then only compose the image and wait for the shot.
-----------

Edmund

[Steve Hendrix]

I posted the following suggestion to the Hassy forum.
-------
Shutter precock / focus-lock firmware suggestion for use with optical finder.

 In spite of its many advantages, the X1D is hard to use for portrait/street because of the shutter lag, but there could be a workaround.

 The shutter lag serves to reset/clear the sensor, unless I'm wrong. The first click closes the shutter so the sensor can reset, the second click is the exposure, at click three the shutter reopens for viewing.

 So there could be a "portrait" mode, where pressing the shutter once locks focus and closes the shutter, clears the sensor, and then the next fulll press of the shutter fires the shutter AT ONCE. The intended use of this mode is one could

1. Preadjust focus and get the camera ready.
2. Hold the camera next to one's eye and look over it after framing, or use an optical finder, and watch the action or the model
3  The direct view with ones eyes or through an optical finder makes the capture AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOMENT.

  There would be no hardware mod to make here, just a firmware tweak to add this shutter-prepared mode, and maybe Hassy could even sell an optical accessory finder for some lenses just as Leica used to do.

 In the end this working mode would be a lot like the old rangefinder cameras, where one would first adjust the distance and then only compose the image and wait for the shot.
-----------

Edmund

I don't know if this is the case.

The Phase One XF Camera can use both focal plane shutter and leaf shutter. You can set the XF to ignore the leaf shutter and only use the focal plane shutter. In this case, the shutter lag is less, and the frames per second also increases. I'm not sure why the leaf shutter needs to start from an open position. But it would seem that if the sensor needed time to clear and/or reset, that this would also be a factor when using the focal plane shutter.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[ErikKaffehr]

I posted the following suggestion to the Hassy forum.
-------
Shutter precock / focus-lock firmware suggestion for use with optical finder.

 In spite of its many advantages, the X1D is hard to use for portrait/street because of the shutter lag, but there could be a workaround.

 The shutter lag serves to reset/clear the sensor, unless I'm wrong. The first click closes the shutter so the sensor can reset, the second click is the exposure, at click three the shutter reopens for viewing.

 So there could be a "portrait" mode, where pressing the shutter once locks focus and closes the shutter, clears the sensor, and then the next fulll press of the shutter fires the shutter AT ONCE. The intended use of this mode is one could

1. Preadjust focus and get the camera ready.
2. Hold the camera next to one's eye and look over it after framing, or use an optical finder, and watch the action or the model
3  The direct view with ones eyes or through an optical finder makes the capture AT EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOMENT.

  There would be no hardware mod to make here, just a firmware tweak to add this shutter-prepared mode, and maybe Hassy could even sell an optical accessory finder for some lenses just as Leica used to do.

 In the end this working mode would be a lot like the old rangefinder cameras, where one would first adjust the distance and then only compose the image and wait for the shot.
-----------

Edmund

Hi,

I am a bit confused on that issue. Exposure can be initiated by resetting the shutter. Shutter does not be used for that. Terminating exposure would need shutter closing, or very fast readout. With a leaf shutter, common sense say that you start exposure with:

• Shutter open]
• Doing a reset on all pixels

Exposure would be terminated by:

• Closing shuter
• Reading out all pixels.

Best regards
Erik

[Jim Kasson]

The Phase One XF Camera can use both focal plane shutter and leaf shutter. You can set the XF to ignore the leaf shutter and only use the focal plane shutter. In this case, the shutter lag is less, and the frames per second also increases. I'm not sure why the leaf shutter needs to start from an open position.

In a MILC like the X1D, the leaf shutter needs to be open for the EVF to work. But there's no precise counterpart to EFCS, so foro fully-mechanical shutter operation, it needs to close before the reset is removed. It can then open and close to time the exposure. Then it has to open again so that the EVF works.

It is possible also to leave the shutter open, and do a global reset to start the exposure and finish it with the leaf shutter, but that will be asymmetric. I don't know which the X1D does.

Jim

[Steve Hendrix]

In a MILC like the X1D, the leaf shutter needs to be open for the EVF to work. But there's no precise counterpart to EFCS, so foro fully-mechanical shutter operation, it needs to close before the reset is removed. It can then open and close to time the exposure. Then it has to open again so that the EVF works.

It is possible also to leave the shutter open, and do a global reset to start the exposure and finish it with the leaf shutter, but that will be asymmetric. I don't know which the X1D does.

Jim

Well that makes sense, Jim. Essentially a live view all the time camera would default to having the shutter open as a starting point. It's interesting that the non EVF'd XF camera also has this mode of operation.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[BobShaw]

X1D shutter sequence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouyVg4UVI0E

[eronald]

Anyway, what do you X1D owners think of my proposed ergonomics improvement?

There is already a mode MQ  Manual Quick which has the requisite functionality, but choosing it on the wheel is kludgy, what I suggest is a quick press on a button that focuses and then closes the shutter, waiting for a shutter button trigger.  So That at any point if you see you will need a fast trigger you can invoke this "quick mode" by pressing a button with your camera hand, and just hold the camera steady or look through an accessory finder..

Edmund

[Jim Kasson]

Well that makes sense, Jim. Essentially a live view all the time camera would default to having the shutter open as a starting point. It's interesting that the non EVF'd XF camera also has this mode of operation.

An SLR with a leaf-shutter lens has a similar issue. The shutter needs to be open for the reflex finder to work. With a focal plane shutter, the shutter can be closed while the image is being viewed in the finder.

[BobShaw]

Anyway, what do you X1D owners think of my proposed ergonomics improvement?

There is already a mode MQ  Manual Quick which has the requisite functionality, but choosing it on the wheel is kludgy, what I suggest is a quick press on a button that focuses and then closes the shutter, waiting for a shutter button trigger.  So That at any point if you see you will need a fast trigger you can invoke this "quick mode" by pressing a button with your camera hand, and just hold the camera steady or look through an accessory finder..

Edmund

Sorry, I don'y know what you mean. Selecting MQ is as easy as selecting M or A. You turn the dial and it is there.
When you do that however you can do nothing from then on except press the shutter, which is excellent for repetitive product shots where everything is set up on a tripod.
However you have no viewfinder so it would make some interesting hand held shots.

[eronald]

Sorry, I don'y know what you mean. Selecting MQ is as easy as selecting M or A. You turn the dial and it is there.
When you do that however you can do nothing from then on except press the shutter, which is excellent for repetitive product shots where everything is set up on a tripod.
However you have no viewfinder so it would make some interesting hand held shots.

Bob,

I"m proposing an ergonomics improvement by making MQ immediately accessible with a button press, without tripod or moving your hand, holding the camera withboth hands to move the mode wheel.

The idea is you slap an accessory viewfinder - or no finder - on the X1D and use it for portrait and street shooting.

Preframe your shot, HANDHELD, press a button with your thumb the lens closes down with AF and exposure locked. Then you watch your subject through the add-on finder or just over the camera and when the moment comes you press the shutter and it fires IMMEDIATLEY. I have often taken portrait shots like that, to get the expression right.

It's like using an old screw Leica or a medium format Compur Super Ikonta: You use one viewfinder for focus, and then move to another for framing, and you CAN shoot action or sports because you have next to no shutter delay. .

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

In a MILC like the X1D, the leaf shutter needs to be open for the EVF to work. But there's no precise counterpart to EFCS, so foro fully-mechanical shutter operation, it needs to close before the reset is removed. It can then open and close to time the exposure. Then it has to open again so that the EVF works.

It is possible also to leave the shutter open, and do a global reset to start the exposure and finish it with the leaf shutter, but that will be asymmetric. I don't know which the X1D does.

Jim

I would have believed that exposure would start with sensor reset, that is instantaneous. No need to close the shutter. Exposure would still be terminated by the mechanical shutter. It was my understanding that the shortest shutter speeds are made possible by that technique.

But, the Karl Taylor video says that the shutter closes before exposure. I am not sure it makes a lot of sense. In the video, he also says that aperture is stopped down before exposure.

Best regards
Erik

[Steve Hendrix]

An SLR with a leaf-shutter lens has a similar issue. The shutter needs to be open for the reflex finder to work. With a focal plane shutter, the shutter can be closed while the image is being viewed in the finder.

Jim, you're right of course. Totally didn't think that through (as you did).


Steve Hendrix/CI

[Jim Kasson]

Jim, you're right of course. Totally didn't think that through (as you did).

Maybe it's because I have a lot of experience manually closing the shutter on view cameras before pulling the dark slide.

Jim

[pschefz]

Bob,

I"m proposing an ergonomics improvement by making MQ immediately accessible with a button press, without tripod or moving your hand, holding the camera withboth hands to move the mode wheel.

The idea is you slap an accessory viewfinder - or no finder - on the X1D and use it for portrait and street shooting.

Preframe your shot, HANDHELD, press a button with your thumb the lens closes down with AF and exposure locked. Then you watch your subject through the add-on finder or just over the camera and when the moment comes you press the shutter and it fires IMMEDIATLEY. I have often taken portrait shots like that, to get the expression right.

It's like using an old screw Leica or a medium format Compur Super Ikonta: You use one viewfinder for focus, and then move to another for framing, and you CAN shoot action or sports because you have next to no shutter delay. .

Edmund

in my experience this scenario is a little like a dance anyway...preparation and anticipation...and for me the trigger finger has to be ready and anticipate the moment, if I wait for it to actually see it, my reaction time and the whatever camera lag adds up to pretty much missing the shot...
so for me every camera is a little different when it comes to it, I am not saying I would not be able to get that shot with the X1DII as it is and I am pretty sure the shutter lag would not necessarily be the big issue since the delay is always the same and can be calculated ....but I would definitely have to shoot manual focus in situations like that....
but there are other cameras for that....ones that anyone can point from the hip and probably get the shot and the small difference in IQ would not be a deal breaker....

[EricWHiss]

X1D shutter sequence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouyVg4UVI0E

Bob, that video was really helpful.  I learned that the blackout occurs after the image is captured not before.  That's a big difference.  With MF SLR cameras like the DF+ the black out primarily was to wait for the mirror shake to die down and was more problematic since things and models move during that time.  If it happens after the exposure to read off the data like the X1D then it might not affect things as much.

[pschefz]

Blackout happens definitely after....
the whole thing feels a little like a process....a little bit like shooting film and having to crank to advance and cock the shutter....obviously much faster and no cranking but a little ritual....focus, slight lag, blackout ...repeat...
looked over my files again btw and moire is very much there....any fabric has moire....the slider in phocus works well but adds weird pattern in hair....solution is to mask final files....just one more step, not that big a deal...I guess there is no filter? the Fuji has a lot less moire but does not look softer?