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Author Topic: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF  (Read 2411 times)

kers

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2019, 10:22:53 pm »


Look, I'll make it REAL simple...
TIFF = Good
PSD = Bad

very interesting.
Now i have a layered tif that exceeds the 4Gb limit: is the 'solution' PSB? 
Or are there any alternatives?

PS    is  .tif    the same as     .tiff   ?



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BobShaw

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2019, 11:37:55 pm »

layered master files are daunting and will not save within the 4GB limit for TIFF's even when using ZIP in layer compression in the TIFF options box in Photoshop. I have no problem using large document format, but Lightroom does not see such files.
Eric Brody
Why save layered TIFFs? Save layered PSD and flattened TIFFs. Before you flatten them remove any extra channels and paths that you created. That is often a reason that files can't be read.
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Timur_Born

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2019, 03:08:42 am »

very interesting.
Now i have a layered tif that exceeds the 4Gb limit: is the 'solution' PSB? 
Yes, the "solution" is PSB. It is a format that uses larger variables to store information, thus the limits are higher. Unfortunately hardly any software other than Photoshop can read this format.

Quote
Or are there any alternatives?
Yes, the alternatives are compressed TIFF files that decrease the size of the file down to less than 4 gb.

Quote
PS    is  .tif    the same as     .tiff   ?
Yes, usually extensions are three characters long, but this is not mandatory anymore (it was in MS DOS days).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 06:20:09 am by Timur_Born »
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digitaldog

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2019, 10:56:59 am »

Now i have a layered tif that exceeds the 4Gb limit: is the 'solution' PSB? 
All already explained.
Quote
PS    is  .tif    the same as     .tiff   ?
PS is Photoshop, no it's not a TIFF. TIFF is TIFF. PSD and PSB are 'native' Photoshop files and as outlined, with rare exception, there's nothing a PSD provides a TIFF doesn't.
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Timur_Born

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2019, 11:22:23 am »

PS is Photoshop
I think he meant "post scriptum", as in "PS: Is .tif the same as .tiff". And then he meant file extensions, which is why the "." is in front of .tif and .tiff.

So he forgot the ":", but you overlooked the two "." in your answer. If you stack the latter on top of each other this makes you even.
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digitaldog

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2019, 12:14:57 pm »

I think he meant "post scriptum", as in "PS: Is .tif the same as .tiff". And then he meant file extensions, which is why the "." is in front of .tif and .tiff.
Again, this is a simple fact: In Photoshop, TIFF is TIFF, opening or saving:

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digitaldog

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2019, 12:22:30 pm »

Why save layered TIFFs?
Because it's a far more supported format than PSD and the why's are explained by Schewe.
Why save a layered PSD and a flattened TIFF? One is plenty.
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digitaldog

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2019, 12:34:42 pm »

PS    is  .tif    the same as     .tiff   ?
In terms of the extension, Photoshop will provide one for you as you toggle the format options while allowing the name to be edited, it uses .tif but depending on the OS, doesn't matter whatsoever.
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kers

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2019, 08:06:15 pm »

In terms of the extension, Photoshop will provide one for you as you toggle the format options while allowing the name to be edited, it uses .tif but depending on the OS, doesn't matter whatsoever.
thanks!
and now is understand the communication problem:
i used PS in the sense of Post Scriptum - it had nothing to do with Photoshop:) 
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Timur_Born

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2019, 07:37:34 am »

I did some performance tests on an uncompressed 3.75 gb TIF file, 8 bit, single layer.

Photoshop PSB (compressed): 0:15 min, 3.03 gb
Photoshop TIF (ZIP): 40 min (!), 1.16 gb

Gimp TIF (ZIP): 4 min, 1.2 gb
I tested a 1.35 gb source file of the same image at lower resolution and both Photoshop and Gimp take 3 minutes to compress the file to TIF ZIP.

Then I duplicated the single layer to get two identical layers and saved as PSB and uncompressed TIFF. The PSB file came out at double the size (2.69 gb), quite expected. The uncompressed TIFF with RLE layer compression could not be created, though, with PS claiming to hit the 4 gb file size limit?! Using uncompressed TIFF with ZIP layer compression came out at 2.75 gb.

Next was ZIP compressed TIFF with RLE layer compression. This came out at 3.37 gb and only took 3:20 min even while a compressed image backup of my system was done in the background (SSD to NAS). Last was ZIP compressed TIFF with ZIP layer compression, resutling in 2.1 gb and tool 4:20 min (backup was mostly done by that time).

So what about the 40 (fourty) minutes ZIP TIFF save I reported earlier? That was at higher image dimensions (pixels). Turns out that Photoshop's ZIP compression performance drops *dramatically* when pixel count increases. And by that I do not mean that it takes longer to write more data, but data write speed drops significantly.

For example, my 19200 x 25200 px test image writes at 3.5 to 6 mb/s average. Changing dimensions to 25200 x 25200 px decreases write-rate to below 1.5 mb/s average. And it drops further in big steps the higher the resolution. The 40 min test file was 32000 x 42000 and write speed dropped below 0.5 mb/s average.

The same large resolution file exported from Gimp writes at about the same 3.5 - 6 mb/s average that the smaller file did, thus Gimp only takes longer for the larger file, because more data has to be written, not because it calculates slower.

So ZIP compressing layers to get around the 4 gb TIFF limit should work, but you have to watch your image resolution.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 07:41:01 am by Timur_Born »
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digitaldog

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2019, 11:49:08 am »

I tested a 1.35 gb source file of the same image at lower resolution and both Photoshop and Gimp take 3 minutes to compress the file to TIF ZIP.
Took a 9 layered document (image and text layers), size being 1.69 gb, saved as TIFF with Zip, WITH layers; took 110 seconds. No big deal not that I'd ever save a TIFF with ZIP because Photoshop is smart enough to advise not doing so:

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Alan Klein

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2019, 12:09:43 pm »

I tried saving a 1.6gb tiff as a tiff ZIP and took around one minute with Irfanview.

Timur_Born

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2019, 12:21:52 pm »

Irfanview saves TIFF ZIP faster, because it compresses considerably less (matching ACDSee). Curiously it uses stronger compression for LZW (matching Photoshop).
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Eric Brody

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2019, 11:45:22 am »

Andrew, I see the same dialog but do not use "older" TIFF viewers and time is not a factor. I usually save frequently without compression with complex multilayered images until I get the dreaded dialog of over 4GB then usually use everything available, ZIP image compression AND ZIP layer compression. What is the problem with this? It seems to give me the smallest file size on disk. Please help me understand why this is a bad idea.
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digitaldog

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2019, 11:55:44 am »

Andrew, I see the same dialog but do not use "older" TIFF viewers and time is not a factor. I usually save frequently without compression with complex multilayered images until I get the dreaded dialog of over 4GB then usually use everything available, ZIP image compression AND ZIP layer compression. What is the problem with this? It seems to give me the smallest file size on disk. Please help me understand why this is a bad idea.
There is no problem per se. There could be issues with compatible software as outlined but nothing really to worry about with BUG free modern software that correctly follows the TIFF published standards. If future archive of data is a concern, a non compressed TIFF is safer but then a compressed TIFF should be more accessible than a PSB which would be the other alternative. So again:



TIFF = Good
PSD = Bad
PSB = Bad if there's an alternative
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Christopher

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2019, 02:50:13 pm »

PSB = Great if Adobe would finally support it in LR and lift the old file size restrictions for LR and ACR.
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BobShaw

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2019, 05:42:05 pm »

Why save a layered PSD and a flattened TIFF? One is plenty.
Because you can print a TIFF using Mirage Print or whatever and catalogue and keyword it in catalogue programmes. All of my print files are TIFF.
I only keep a layered PSD if I think it may need more work or can be used for something else. They become too huge.
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digitaldog

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2019, 06:35:13 pm »

Because you can print a TIFF using Mirage Print or whatever and catalogue and keyword it in catalogue programmes. All of my print files are TIFF.
I only keep a layered PSD if I think it may need more work or can be used for something else. They become too huge.
And you can keep the layered TIFFs. Doesn't Mirage support that? It should.
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kers

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2019, 08:03:29 pm »

I only keep a layered PSD if I think it may need more work or can be used for something else. They become too huge.

Who cares when 5TB is 100$   ?  i choose for a compressed files for that saves me a lot of time saving and opening...  i don't care about the size.
My problem is that PSB files do not have a Thumbnail...
(while at te same time they show a preview in column-view on my mac ??)

PSB = Great if Adobe would finally support it in LR and lift the old file size restrictions for LR and ACR.
+1 if Adobe internally does not support then who does?
With 100MP camera's you need PSB.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 05:46:53 am by kers »
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Timur_Born

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Re: high megapixel cameras and saving as a TIFF
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2019, 03:09:59 am »

There is a $10 PSD Quick Look Plugin that adds PSB thumbnails to Finder. The plugin homepage also mentions that Catalina brings its own thumbnail support for PSBs, but is slower than said plugin.
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