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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 140593 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3820 on: February 03, 2020, 11:19:28 pm »

So the first voting appears to be in from Iowa Democrats nomination.  I don;t know if this is the final. But Biden didn't do too well.  Buttgieg won. The Democrats must be getting nervous.  Time to impeach Trump again. 


Buttigieg   27.6%   
Sanders   26.3   
Warren   20.5
Biden   13.8   
Klobuchar   11.5   

Voting is a mess in Iowa.  Still no official results.  Some precincts are reporting that the APP has crashed and they are reduced to calling the results in, and being on hold for an hour.   Gonna be cry’s of foul come tomorrow.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3821 on: February 04, 2020, 12:33:26 am »

So let’s review.  Bernard wants to ask a question to Americans to see if they want “additional” witnesses to the impeachment trial.  So he writes the question ;  “ Do you want witnesses in the impeachment trial?” 

He must depend upon the reader to determine his intention is to ask about additional witnesses beyond the witnesses already part of the trial., many of which have no idea there are already witnesses in the trial. 

Instead, other polls asked; “Do you want ADDITIONAL witnesses to the impeachment trial? ”.  No need for convoluted distortions to get the reader to infer context that is obscure.  Just a clearly worded question that requires no implication. 

You need to be mentally challenged to find Bernards contorted position even remotely plausible.

He simply screwed up and is looking to save face.

The question isn't whether it would have been better to add "additional" to the question or not. A more accurate wording is obviously always better.

The question is whether a majority of people living in the US (and I have been told insistently by several of you here that living in the US is enough to have a much better understand of the stakes than mine) could misunderstand the context in which the question "Do you want witnesses in the impeachment trial?" is being asked by not understanding that this is about the upcoming/on-going second phase Senate hearings.

When a trial takes place in 2 phases and when the first phase is already over, when there is a brewing public debate about the need to have additional witnesses during the second phase (the Senate trials), it seems fair to think that a large majority of people taking the time to answer the survey are reasonnably well informed and will correctly interpret the question as being related to the addition of witnesses during second phase of the trial (the Senate part).

Otherwise, the question would have been phrased "was it right to have witnesses during the Congress trial?". Note the past tense here.

But would it appear that we have a different perception of common sense.  ;D

And I find it fascinating that you try this hard to be right about this question. It tells me you understand that having 75% of people unhappy about the way the Senate trials were conducted doesn't mean good things for your camp.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 12:50:06 am by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3822 on: February 04, 2020, 12:44:44 am »

My post said nothing about Trump's innoence.  I responded to your point that a president couldn't get impeached by his party.  Nixon proved your statement wrong.  If there's enough evidence of a real High Crime, both parties will impeach and convict.  The problem is the Democrat House used political charges to impeach, rather than real High Crimes.  So the president's party dismissed them for political reasons.  GIGO_Garbage In Garbage Out. 

I agree with you that Senators had higher ethical standards in the past. It's sad to see how Trump's influence has lowered the standards of the Republican Senators.

But this isn't about Democrats. They just did their job when they identified a clearly impeachable offence.

Your side seems to have a problem with the American Constitution.  You also don;t like the way our electoral system works constantly complaining that Trump didn't really win the presidency because Clinton got more popular votes.  So now you're doing it again complaining that the Senate didn't do it's constitutional job.  You seem to have problems handling losing.

This is a very interesting example of manipulative technique. Let me spell it out for those who wouldn't be familiar with it.

You group 2 statements:
- one correct: I am indeed convinced that the impeachement senate hearings were not conducted ethically/legally,
- one not correct: I am absolutely not of the opinion that the US electoral system isn't proper or was not applied the way it should have during Trump's election.

-> You derive something from the incorrect statement and make it a generality by implying it would apply to the correct statement.

In this case, you make it look like my "side" (I am only on the side of the truth) is having a problem with the constitution.

While in fact, I am the one defending your constitution against the way it was not respected by Republicans.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 12:54:38 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3823 on: February 04, 2020, 01:56:55 am »

And how do you know when they are accurate and when they are not?..l

It helps to live here.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3824 on: February 04, 2020, 02:06:51 am »

So the first voting appears to be in from Iowa Democrats nomination.  I don;t know if this is the final. But Biden didn't do too well.  Buttgieg won. The Democrats must be getting nervous.  Time to impeach Trump again. 


Buttigieg   27.6%   
Sanders   26.3   
Warren   20.5
Biden   13.8   
Klobuchar   11.5   

He is a top, then?

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3825 on: February 04, 2020, 02:46:08 am »

It helps to live here.

You mean there right?

Cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3826 on: February 04, 2020, 04:49:53 am »

No Bernard, it is relevant to everyone , well except you. Its a classic example of you getting duped by a poll designed to fool people.  The question was quite clear..."witnesses" and not "additional witneses", and was asked in such a way to elicit the most favorable responses even though the trial DID have witness testimony presented.  As for "violating" the will of the people, if you look at the polls, they tell you that the people are pretty much evenly divided for and against impeachment.  Given the fact that Republican respondants are almost in complete ageement against Impeachment and the Senators who are against ADDITIONAL witnesses are Rebublicans, it appears they are being faithful to their constituents.

The reality is, IMO and that of others is the vast majority of American had no idea how this trial would work.  Its not like they happen very often or that the average American is actually paying attention to the trial.  Most are tuning it out.  If you were to ask Americans what a witness at a trial looks like I suspect the overwhelming answer would be someone sitting in the dock, being sworn in and being questioned DIRECTLY with in front of the jury.  Like they see on Law and Order.  Of course, your original stated position was "additional witnesses"  Now you are simply trying to do the backstroke.


Which is of course complete and utter bullcrap.  The words were PLAINLY written.  Words have meaning.  It this case the meaning was QUITE clear.  You, like Shiff are simply making things up

I'm reassured to realise that you view the majority of your compatriots with the same enthusiasm as I do mine; for me, that has always explained Brexit and the lack of thinking behind it that swung the vote. But hey, some would think that's a soupçon of elitism on our part.

;-)

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3827 on: February 04, 2020, 07:47:08 am »

Voting is a mess in Iowa.  Still no official results.  Some precincts are reporting that the APP has crashed and they are reduced to calling the results in, and being on hold for an hour.   Gonna be cry’s of foul come tomorrow.
Wouldn't it be something if my numbers are right?  Interesting that Buttgieg claimed victory in his speech last night "stronger" than the others.  Biden acted like he came in fourth which would be awful for him.  He even sent a letter to the Iowa Democratic committee warning them not to release the final vote count until they review them with him.  That tells me he's really scared he did poorly there. That would confirm my prediction that the Democrats aimed their guns at Trump when they impeached him but will wound up shooting Biden instead.

In any case, it seems their APP works as good as some of mine.  But it's very embarrassing for the Democrats.  Their inability to handle a simple nomination vote in a small state shows how they might make a mess of the economy if they were elected and put in charge.  Captain of Industry Bloomberg must be smiling because this will give him more credibility to be successful President. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3828 on: February 04, 2020, 07:50:26 am »

I agree with you that Senators had higher ethical standards in the past. It's sad to see how Trump's influence has lowered the standards of the Republican Senators.

But this isn't about Democrats. They just did their job when they identified a clearly impeachable offence.

This is a very interesting example of manipulative technique. Let me spell it out for those who wouldn't be familiar with it.

You group 2 statements:
- one correct: I am indeed convinced that the impeachement senate hearings were not conducted ethically/legally,
- one not correct: I am absolutely not of the opinion that the US electoral system isn't proper or was not applied the way it should have during Trump's election.

-> You derive something from the incorrect statement and make it a generality by implying it would apply to the correct statement.

In this case, you make it look like my "side" (I am only on the side of the truth) is having a problem with the constitution.

While in fact, I am the one defending your constitution against the way it was not respected by Republicans.

Cheers,
Bernard

I guess we'll just have to disagree.  That's what makes a horse race. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3829 on: February 04, 2020, 10:35:35 am »

We have reached the point of complete absurdity! 

"If abuse of power is not impeachable ... Trump could offer Alaska to the Russians in exchange for support in the next election or decide to move to Mar-a-Lago permanently and let Jared Kushner run the country, delegating to him the decision whether to go to war," Schiff said.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3830 on: February 04, 2020, 10:45:11 am »

We have reached the point of complete absurdity! 

"If abuse of power is not impeachable ... Trump could offer Alaska to the Russians in exchange for support in the next election or decide to move to Mar-a-Lago permanently and let Jared Kushner run the country, delegating to him the decision whether to go to war," Schiff said.
Frankly, the fact presidents have so much power, any president, is the Congress's fault.  Over the decades, they have turned their constitutional power  over to them rather than making the important decisions about war and peace themselves.  They have no one to blame but themselves. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3831 on: February 04, 2020, 11:17:52 am »

Frankly, the fact presidents have so much power, any president, is the Congress's fault.  Over the decades, they have turned their constitutional power  over to them rather than making the important decisions about war and peace themselves.  They have no one to blame but themselves.

I agree. 

I would even want us to return to Senators being picked by state legislators. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3832 on: February 04, 2020, 11:49:45 am »

I agree. 

I would even want us to return to Senators being picked by state legislators. 
Well, there's no push for that and I doubt if it would fly.  With getting rid of the electoral system for president, and going to a national popular vote, you will have small states opposed.  But with Senators, I don;t see America going back to legislator's selection. 

First off, that would make senators from the same party as the state legislature.  At least now, there's a possibility senators and legislature can be from separate parties.  PLus in NY where I was from and even here in NJ where I now live, both are among the most corrupt legislators in the country.  Members are always getting caught taking bribes and going to jail.   Who wants them to pick my senators?  Of course Sen Menendez from NJ is among the most corrupt anyway.  You can;t win.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3833 on: February 04, 2020, 12:45:18 pm »

He is a top, then?

Evermore despicable.  Is the well of despicability not yet empty?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3834 on: February 04, 2020, 12:57:48 pm »

Evermore despicable.  Is the well of despicability not yet empty?

Well, if you ever elect such a President, you’d want him to be on top of things, wouldn’t you?

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3835 on: February 04, 2020, 12:58:02 pm »

Well, there's no push for that and I doubt if it would fly.  With getting rid of the electoral system for president, and going to a national popular vote, you will have small states opposed.  But with Senators, I don;t see America going back to legislator's selection. 

First off, that would make senators from the same party as the state legislature.  At least now, there's a possibility senators and legislature can be from separate parties.  PLus in NY where I was from and even here in NJ where I now live, both are among the most corrupt legislators in the country.  Members are always getting caught taking bribes and going to jail.   Who wants them to pick my senators?  Of course Sen Menendez from NJ is among the most corrupt anyway.  You can;t win.

I'm a small federal government guy and would rather see most issues being handled by the states.  If the Senators were picked by the state legislature, they would be less likely to ceed any power of the state to the federal government since doing so may end up getting them removed from office. 

Allowing the people to decided the Senators weakens this significantly, hence one reason why the federal government has gotten so big. 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3836 on: February 04, 2020, 01:21:04 pm »

Well, if you ever elect such a President, you’d want him to be on top of things, wouldn’t you?

The thought of a person like Trump being on top of things really makes me cringe.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3837 on: February 04, 2020, 01:37:39 pm »

The thought of a person like Trump being on top of things really makes me cringe.

even in middle of things
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3839 on: February 04, 2020, 02:29:40 pm »

(Bold mine)

Quote
New polling by Gallup reveals that President Trump's approval rating is at an all-time high, as he prepares to deliver his third State of the Union address Tuesday night and the Senate is expected to acquit him in his impeachment trial on Wednesday.

Trump's job approval rating now sits at 49 percent, with a 94 percent approval rating among Republicans and a 42 percent rating with independents, both numbers being highs for Trump's presidency. The GOP itself is also seeing a significant boost...

...In addition to Trump seeing a rise in approval, the Republican party as a whole is now viewed more favorably than it has since 2005, according to Gallup's data. Their report states that 51 percent of Americans now have a positive view of the GOP, compared to just 43 percent in September 2019.

So much for the "end of GOP."

Bernard, are you there?  ;)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trumps-job-approval-rating-rises-to-49-percent-amid-impeachment-highest-since-taking-office-gallup-says
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 02:40:40 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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