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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 339761 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3720 on: February 01, 2020, 07:30:09 pm »

Uh, last I looked there were 17 ( plus one hidden) witnesses in this trial.  And also last time I looked, The House decided not to pursue Bolton’s testimony.   

Enjoy your memodrama.

We are talking about the Senate where an overwhelming 75% of the population in the US expected additional witnesses to be called.

And you know full well the the white house refused tesstimomies during the congress hearings that led to impeachment. This refusal to collaborate was even one of the two articles part of the impeachment in case you needed a reminder.

When the opinion of 75% of the population is ignored by the ruling party on such an essential matter that involved the core of the democratic process, why on earth do you think that the willingness of Americans would he taken into account in the future?

Cheers,
Bernard

RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3721 on: February 01, 2020, 07:49:05 pm »

Where do you get this stuff, Bernard? Evidently Japanese TV is at least as disfunctional as US TV. From what you're posting here I have to conclude it may even be worse.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3722 on: February 01, 2020, 07:50:47 pm »

We are talking about the Senate where an overwhelming 75% of the population in the US expected additional witnesses to be called.

And you know full well the the white house refused tesstimomies during the congress hearings that led to impeachment. This refusal to collaborate was even one of the two articles part of the impeachment in case you needed a reminder.

When the opinion of 75% of the population is ignored by the ruling party on such an essential matter that involved the core of the democratic process, why on earth do you think that the willingness of Americans would he taken into account in the future?

Cheers,
Bernard

I’ve yet to see the questions as posed to the public that resulted in that 75%.  Were the questions asking about “additional” witnesses? Or just witnesses?   It’s real easy to get the results you want epwith a carefully worded question.

The House has legal remedies available but in their rush they decided not to pursue those options.  Trump had every right to challenge.  And he did.  If you have an issue here it’s with the House, not the Senate.

That second article is pure bunk for the reason I stated above.   Clearly you are smarter than this Bernard.

Added on edit.  The first link at the top of a quick google.  Notive the article states “witnesses” not additional witnesses.  I guess they think is an episode of Law and Order.  I’m going to dig a bit further, so who know.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/480336-support-for-witnesses-in-senate-trial-at-75-percent-poll

Added again on edit.  As I figured I had it correct, at least on this poll.  It was “witnesses, not a
“Additional witnesses”




20. Do you think witnesses should be allowed to testify in the Senate impeachment trial of President Trump, or not?
                                                               WHITE......
                                                               COLLEGE DEG
                     Tot    Rep    Dem    Ind    Men    Wom    Yes    No
 
Yes/Be allowed       75%    49%    95%    75%    70%    79%    73%    68%
No                   20     43      3     18     26     15     22     26
DK/NA                 5      8      2      7      5      6      5      6
 
                     AGE IN YRS..............    WHITE.....
                     18-34  35-49  50-64  65+    Men    Wom    Wht    Blk    Hsp
 
Yes/Be allowed       86%    81%    69%    67%    66%    75%    71%    89%    81%
No                   10     16     27     25     29     19     24      7     16
DK/NA                 4      3      4      7      5      6      6      4      4

Added on edit again

A CNN poll found 69% in favor of witnesses that did not testify in the House but it was limited to 15 battleground states.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3654

Other polls I found put the question in the 50% range.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 08:21:36 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3723 on: February 01, 2020, 08:31:29 pm »

Added on edit.  The first link at the top of a quick google.  Notive the article states “witnesses” not additional witnesses.

Additional witnesses?

The Senate has not called any witnesses. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This by itself seems like a derelict of duty ...

So, because Congress has not called any witnesses that were instructed by 'The White House' to not cooperate, the Senate feels no need to get to the bottom of the issue?

Obviously, getting a court order to have the witnesses testify would have taken many months, by which time the scheduled Presidential elections (that were being tampered with) will already be taling place, duh.

So you seem to support rigged/unchallenged elections. Banana republic style?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3724 on: February 01, 2020, 08:56:39 pm »

Additional witnesses?

The Senate has not called any witnesses. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This by itself seems like a derelict of duty ...

So, because Congress has not called any witnesses that were instructed by 'The White House' to not cooperate, the Senate feels no need to get to the bottom of the issue?

Obviously, getting a court order to have the witnesses testify would have taken many months, by which time the scheduled Presidential elections (that were being tampered with) will already be taling place, duh.

So you seem to support rigged/unchallenged elections. Banana republic style?

Like in the Clinton impeachment no witness were called to testify.  They played taped depositions.   In this impeachment trial they played taped testimony.

If you want to call a witness who disputes your subpoena you go to court.  People and administrations have  right to dispute.  That’s the rules.  So you want to throw the rules out?

Basically it seems the feeling by Republicans is a Trump asked for the investigations and tried to use the aid as a club, but it does no rise to a level of removal from office.  The new testimony would not change that. 

What rigged elections? 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3725 on: February 01, 2020, 09:37:01 pm »

Like in the Clinton impeachment no witness were called to testify.  They played taped depositions.   In this impeachment trial they played taped testimony.

If you want to call a witness who disputes your subpoena you go to court.  People and administrations have  right to dispute.  That’s the rules.  So you want to throw the rules out?

Prepostutual assumption, and an unhelpful misrepresentation, although it's a telling M.O. ...

Quote
Basically it seems the feeling by Republicans is a Trump asked for the investigations and tried to use the aid as a club, but it does not rise to a level of removal from office.

There is a possible case for making that ('does it rise to a level') argument if it weren't as seriously damaging to the constitution of the USA. It does rise to that level.

Quote
The new testimony would not change that.

Clairvoyancy doesn't come into determining that, wouldn't you agree?

Quote
What rigged elections?

Wow! Doesn't it strike you as rigged when a foreign power has to be asked (under the pressure of (not) alleviating a war effort that kills people every week) to cast doubt on a potential political opponent's credibility? An immorally odd course of action (that's assumed to be illegal in civilized countries), to say the least.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3726 on: February 01, 2020, 09:49:35 pm »

On the additional witnesses (FYI, witnesses were called in the house and admitted into evidence into the trial, so yes, I do mean additional), I listened to a Podcast today with Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham that made some very good points on why the vote went the way it did. 

The main point was that regardless if what Bolton said was true, the president is still allowed to investigate perceived corruption.  So there was nothing Bolton could have testified to that would have changed this, especially considering Bolton alluded to 2016 interference being the cause for the requested investigation, not for a 2020 advantage. 

Second was that the Dems, especially Warren, made it impossible for either Lamar Alexander or Murkowski to vote for witnesses, creating a 50/50 split.  Alexander, who is an institutionalist, was pretty much a no vote early Thursday for the pure reason that he did not want to put the Senate into a position to make judgements on the law for the first time ever, instead of the courts.  He wanted to preserve the institution as much as possible.  However, Murkowski at this point was still up in the air. 

Then Warren sent in her question asking if Justice Roberts, along with the Supreme Court, should be embarrassed by the proceeding, and it became obvious that if a 50/50 vote happened, regardless if Roberts declined to vote himself or voted for no additional witnesses, the Dems would use this as a way to delegitimize the Supreme Court.  This enraged republicans much more then what the Dems anticipated and it was at this point that both Alexander and Murkowski decided it would be best to have a 51/49 vote so the Dems would not be given the opportunity to destroy the legitimacy of the Supreme Courts (along with everything other institution they have demolished since 2016). 

Essentially the Dems, especially Warren, helped push the Republicans towards this 51/49 vote. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 09:54:49 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3727 on: February 01, 2020, 09:50:59 pm »

Prepostutual assumption, and an unhelpful misrepresentation, although it's a telling M.O. ...

That’s the rules, dude, deal with it.  Clearly this is beyond your ken


Quote
There is a possible case for making that ('does it rise to a level') argument if it weren't as seriously damaging to the constitution of the USA. It does rise to that level.

But that’s not the opinion of those who matter, the Republicans, and I suspect a few Democrats in the Senate.

Quote
doesn't come into determining that, wouldn't you agree?

Just listen to the statements of the Republicans.  Then get back to me, perhaps a bit more informed.

Quote
Wow! Doesn't it strike you as rigged when a foreign power has to be asked (under the pressure of (not) alleviating a war effort that kills people everyr week) to cast doubt on a potential political opponent's credibility? An immorally odd course of action (that's assumed to be illegal in civilized countries), to say the least.

They were asked to investigate. If Biden is clean, how can they cast doubt.  Of course no investigation happened and the aid was given.   Now how is the election rigged again?  Or maybe you were thinking about how Trump, was targeted by the FBI, and intel community, fake documents were produced by a British person using Russian sources, and used to try and take him down?  You mean THAT attempt to rig an election?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3728 on: February 01, 2020, 10:00:25 pm »

That’s the rules, dude, deal with it.  Clearly this is beyond your ken

Okay, so you do not want to debate. Sad, but telling.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3729 on: February 01, 2020, 10:06:31 pm »

When you took a gig, or me for that matter, did the government tell you what you had to charge to take the job?  Thats my problem with the issue. Its a supposed to be a somewhat of a free market.  If you don't like the offer you move on and hopefully find someone who will pay what you think you are worth or you accept the offer and do the work.  To use photography for an example, I'm sure there are many a wedding photographer who charge way more that what the average joe can afford to spend. But they still find a market.  Then there is average joes uncle who just got a new Nikon and who will shoot the dang thing for a sixpack.  Mandating wages for Doctors just might give us the wedding photo model, with the really good guys working for those with the bucks, and not the average joe. 

It's already happening.  I'm on Medicare.  There are doctors, the better ones, who I want to go to who have opted out of Medicare.  That means I have to pay all their charges personally out of my own pocket.  Medicare will not give me anything back.  So I'm stuck going to the lesser qualified doctors who have not opted out.

If there becomes a Medicare for all, the pools of better doctors will shrink.  Either they'll opt out and only the rich will be able to pay for their services.  Or if the government mandates no opting out, then many fine doctors will just retire and new doctors will decide to go into other fields.  Medical care will not be as good as it was.

Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3730 on: February 01, 2020, 10:08:46 pm »

Okay, so you do not want to debate. Sad, but telling.

So I other words you have nothing.   You were told how the process works yet you want to break the rules.  That’s what is sad and really telling.  Btw, I’m here, what makes you think I don’t want to “debate”?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3731 on: February 01, 2020, 11:17:18 pm »

On the additional witnesses (FYI, witnesses were called in the house and admitted into evidence into the trial, so yes, I do mean additional), I listened to a Podcast today with Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham that made some very good points on why the vote went the way it did. 

The main point was that regardless if what Bolton said was true, the president is still allowed to investigate perceived corruption.  So there was nothing Bolton could have testified to that would have changed this, especially considering Bolton alluded to 2016 interference being the cause for the requested investigation, not for a 2020 advantage. 

Second was that the Dems, especially Warren, made it impossible for either Lamar Alexander or Murkowski to vote for witnesses, creating a 50/50 split.  Alexander, who is an institutionalist, was pretty much a no vote early Thursday for the pure reason that he did not want to put the Senate into a position to make judgements on the law for the first time ever, instead of the courts.  He wanted to preserve the institution as much as possible.  However, Murkowski at this point was still up in the air. 

Then Warren sent in her question asking if Justice Roberts, along with the Supreme Court, should be embarrassed by the proceeding, and it became obvious that if a 50/50 vote happened, regardless if Roberts declined to vote himself or voted for no additional witnesses, the Dems would use this as a way to delegitimize the Supreme Court.  This enraged republicans much more then what the Dems anticipated and it was at this point that both Alexander and Murkowski decided it would be best to have a 51/49 vote so the Dems would not be given the opportunity to destroy the legitimacy of the Supreme Courts (along with everything other institution they have demolished since 2016). 

Essentially the Dems, especially Warren, helped push the Republicans towards this 51/49 vote. 
Joe, I think it's simpler than that.  Why would a defense attorney help the prosecutor make their case.  It would be like them giving the rope to the prosecutor to hang their client.

The House Democrats failed to do their job.  They didn't get the evidence they needed during the House impeachment phase.  Democrats rushed to judgement for political reasons producing a weak case.  Then they expected the Republicans to roll over and help them make their case.  This from former trial lawyers who understand the adversarial relationship.  The Democrats should be voted out of office for incompetency rather than for anything else. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3732 on: February 02, 2020, 02:39:52 am »

... Frustrating because these people by and large don't take the time to educate themselves on what they actually want...

There you go again, the tired old trope that if one is a Trump supporter, they must be uneducated.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3733 on: February 02, 2020, 03:56:58 am »

The main point was that regardless if what Bolton said was true, the president is still allowed to investigate perceived corruption.  So there was nothing Bolton could have testified to that would have changed this, especially considering Bolton alluded to 2016 interference being the cause for the requested investigation, not for a 2020 advantage. 

Beautiful thinking... we will not hear witnesses because... the President is innocent.  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3734 on: February 02, 2020, 04:00:09 am »

20. Do you think witnesses should be allowed to testify in the Senate impeachment trial of President Trump, or not?
                                                               WHITE......
                                                               COLLEGE DEG
                     Tot   
 
Yes/Be allowed       75%   

Indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3735 on: February 02, 2020, 04:27:59 am »

There you go again, the tired old trope that if one is a Trump supporter, they must be uneducated.


Many of our British Conservative head honchos are well educated; many from the Oxbridge circuit. Do you, therefore, assume that that education has also made them intelligent? Education and intelligence are very different attributes, one earned by rote and the other naturally given - or not - at birth. I have seen little display of education or intelligence from them recently, but plenty of animal cunning and shameless deceit, not to mention downright lying. Regarding the populace: when you vote to spit in the face of, insult your biggest, most important client, what can anyone say? It's not the client's state of mind that is suspect.

I would rather take the advice of someone I consider wise than of one who simply went to the "right" schools and university, usually the measure of deep, parental pockets, though that is certainly not to confine the fool to the top end of the pole. In Britain, it has often meant such crème de la crème people turn to showbiz, areas such as tv comedy and satire. Of the others without the sterling silver in their mouth, many have made the step to entrepreneur and created fortunes, the only time they have set foot in a university being when invited to speak, when not barred by silly students and their unions clubs from so doing.

Slobodan, it's been many years since I abandoned the innocently inane belief that education equates with intelligence.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 04:32:02 am by Rob C »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3736 on: February 02, 2020, 07:14:35 am »

In short, its nothing but unfocused populist rage that doesn't care who, or what, it breaks.  I understand that there's a swell of people that are fed up with politicians and you're absolutely correct - I see it in Trump folks AND the hardcore Bernie people, and honestly, it's both frustrating and scary.

Frustrating because these people by and large don't take the time to educate themselves on what they actually want (Slobodan posted an NPR article awhile back that quoted some idiot talking about how she "doesn't like" whomever "decided" that a certain cleaning agent was bad for the environment, so she thinks they should be ignored or voted out or something) and it's a proven fact that evidence contrary to imbedded opinion actually makes people dig in harder.  Scary because they're being worked up, deliberately IMHO by Trump, probably Bernie as well, to the point where they just want to break stuff.  And that's BS.  I do care to an extent about disaffection and the legitimate issues people have.  I have nothing for contempt for people that just want to break the world because they've been stirred up for political purposes. 
You may be describing Bernie supporters but not Trump supporters.

Trump's supporters mainly want to go back (MAGA) to an America that was stable and powerful militarily and economically.  A time where we seem to know our place in the world and with ourselves.  They don't want to break things but do want to eliminate the "elite" part of the government. 

Bernie's supporters on the other hand want to redo America into a socialist state where they control wealth, thought and action.  People won't be free to live their own lives.  A kind of 1984. It's the people on the left who are stopping discussions in colleges putting a halt to free speech through violent action, not Trump's supporters.  It's Bernie's armies that want to start a new Marxist Utopia.  Trump's just want to be left alone to build golf courses or buy SUV's.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3737 on: February 02, 2020, 07:31:05 am »

Joe, I think it's simpler than that.  Why would a defense attorney help the prosecutor make their case.  It would be like them giving the rope to the prosecutor to hang their client.

The House Democrats failed to do their job.  They didn't get the evidence they needed during the House impeachment phase.  Democrats rushed to judgement for political reasons producing a weak case.  Then they expected the Republicans to roll over and help them make their case.  This from former trial lawyers who understand the adversarial relationship.  The Democrats should be voted out of office for incompetency rather than for anything else.

That is true, but the devil is in the details.  Some people need a little extra push every now and then. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3738 on: February 02, 2020, 07:39:28 am »

Beautiful thinking... we will not hear witnesses because... the President is innocent.  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Well certainly innocent of any crime.  He was not even charged with one.  Insofar as the actual two articles, they just do not rise to the level of impeachment regardless, IMO.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #3739 on: February 02, 2020, 08:26:15 am »

Indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

"witnesses" not "Additional wittnesses"
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