Impeaching Donald Trump

[James Clark]

What are going to do when its Bernie V Trump. 

Weep for humanity.

[Chris Kern]

Do you know that any travel insurance policy that I ever needed to buy automatically excluded the US? One had to take out a much more expensive policy. That tells me something is a bit fishy across the Atlantic.

Isn't that because you can use a European Health Insurance Card* for emergency medical services anywhere in the EU, but not in America?  However, many private European medical insurance policies do cover services in the United States.  (Just as many private U.S. medical insurance policies cover emergency services in other countries.)

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*At least until Dec. 31, or whenever the U.K. and the EU complete the transition.

[James Clark]

Calling folks deplorable is not a winning play. But I suggest you plesse keep it up.

You're avoiding the fundamental question of why y'all think it's so groovy when Trump calls people names all day, every day.   I mean, answering that was basically the thrust of that garbage pile you linked to above, but it was so frothy that I'd like to hear your more rational, sensible take on it and see if it makes any more sense.

[LesPalenik]

Do you know that any travel insurance policy that I ever needed to buy automatically excluded the US? One had to take out a much more expensive policy. That tells me something is a bit fishy across the Atlantic. And it ain't the vanishing cod.

Same when travelling from Canada. Travel insurance which covers emergency medical procedures in USA is now very expensive, especially for seniors.

[Robert Roaldi]

Same when travelling from Canada. Travel insurance which covers emergency medical procedures in USA is now very expensive, especially for seniors.

It's only one anecdotal story but a lady I know flew to a weekend business conference in Vegas from Toronto. She arrived a day early and collapsed in her hotel room shortly after check-in. They took her to emergency and they determined that she'd had a minor stroke. She stayed in the hospital for one night, had some blood work, ate two meals, saw one doctor for a few minutes who explained what happened and left her with some instructions for her GP when she got back home. The silly woman had not bought travel insurance for some incomprehensible reason. The hospital bill was about $23,000 USD. She made a stupid choice about travel insurance, but it's hard to view that invoice as anything other than a racket.

I guess she should have researched various emergency options before leaving home and left a note for the paramedics. Made me wonder if there are web sites where you can study the medical options in various US locales before your trip, much the way you shop online for the best Nikon deal.

[Chris Kern]

It's only one anecdotal story but a lady I know flew to a weekend business conference in Vegas from Toronto. She arrived a day early and collapsed in her hotel room shortly after check-in. They took her to emergency and they determined that she'd had a minor stroke. She stayed in the hospital for one night, had some blood work, ate two meals, saw one doctor for a few minutes who explained what happened and left her with some instructions for her GP when she got back home. The silly woman had not bought travel insurance for some incomprehensible reason. The hospital bill was about $23,000 USD.

The U.S. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act is a federal statute that requires hospitals with emergency departments that accept government Medicare payments (essentially all hospitals in the United States) to treat and stabilize anyone who requires emergency medical care.  If the patient has medical insurance, the hospital may file an insurance claim on the patient's behalf.  If the patient is not insured, the hospital can request payment, but may not condition treatment on the patient's consent to pay.  There are substantial financial penalties for hospitals and physicians that do not comply with the provisions of the law and no institution is likely to risk loss of Medicare eligibility over failure to treat an emergency patient.  (Incidentally, the charge you cite seems bizarrely high, even if it included sophisticated imaging services such as an MRI.)

[faberryman]

(Incidentally, the charge you cite seems bizarrely high, even if it included sophisticated imaging services such as an MRI.)

The charges don't surprise me in the least. Been treated in the ER and spent a couple of nights in the hospital recently?

[Craig Lamson]

You're avoiding the fundamental question of why y'all think it's so groovy when Trump calls people names all day, every day.   I mean, answering that was basically the thrust of that garbage pile you linked to above, but it was so frothy that I'd like to hear your more rational, sensible take on it and see if it makes any more sense.

Actually I dont think its all that groovy when Trump calls people names.  In fact there is a lot I don't like about Trump. I have heard this expressed by other Trump voters as well.  I wish he would curtail his tweets but sadly its his outlet to talk to the world.  But it's who Trump is and I'll take him warts and all over Hillary or the rest.  We never get the perfect candidate, so you need to make a choice or sit on the sidelines.  We singular citizens have very little power to shape our country except for our vote.  So I'll continue to make a choice, and deal with that it brings.

My take on the article is simple.  Many people are really tired of the same old Washington.  They want something differenet and they want someone to take on the old guard.  Watch A Trump rally.  These folks  are telling the country something.  They don't want what 'normal" politicians are selling. Even those on the far left are saying the same thing.  The problem for those who oppose Trump is that its now the squishy middle that is moving his way.  Data collected at his rally show a very large percentage of ticket requests come from self described Democrats and another decent percentage who did not vote last election.  Chris Mathews reported hte other night that a source in Pennsylvania that republician voter registrations are going through the roof.  Polls are showing a big increase in support for Trump from African Americans.  You have to ask why?  Something he is saying or doing is moving them.   

These same people are pretty much sick of the media as well, no doubt egged on by Trump.  But IMO they have good reason.  The media sucks when it comes to Trump...and Trump voters too.  I don't know the current stats and I'm simply too lazy to look them up now but the negative story number is in the 90% range.  Now I don't care how much you dont Like Trump, 90 percent of what he has done as President is not negative.   

I may be from the Midwest but I'm not doing Meth, or any other drug including booze, so my opinion is befing fueled by either.  And I'm reasonably sure its not true for the vast majority of Trump voters either.

So now the question I'll put to you, James, is what do you find so deplorable about that opinion piece?

[RSL]

Trump calls people names because it gets the Democrats stirred up and teed off, and they start making big mistakes like the impeachment extravaganza they just put on. That idiotic show was worth more to Trump's coming campaign than the Republicans have money to buy. He's gonna keep it up, and the Dems are gonna stay upset and keep making mistakes. It's all politics.

[Craig Lamson]

One of my granddaughters is a doctor; yes I do have some idea of the study, the hard work, the crazy hours and the exploitation (my take) of junior doctors. All that said, the job is a vocation and they all have a pretty shrewd idea of what it is. If not a vocation, like photography, you should not be in it.

It strikes me that telling them what they can earn is a perfectly reasonable concept. After all, every damned gig that I undertook came with its budget. Most people who work for their keep work to a price; why not docs too? If they need more than a reasonably good salary, then form a company and get your percentage of what your employees make; the point is that the service they perform be reasonably priced at a level the average guy can afford, or his insurance company can afford without screwing him into the gutter. Do you know that any travel insurance policy that I ever needed to buy automatically excluded the US? One had to take out a much more expensive policy. That tells me something is a bit fishy across the Atlantic. And it ain't the vanishing cod.

When you took a gig, or me for that matter, did the government tell you what you had to charge to take the job?  Thats my problem with the issue. Its a supposed to be a somewhat of a free market.  If you don't like the offer you move on and hopefully find someone who will pay what you think you are worth or you accept the offer and do the work.  To use photography for an example, I'm sure there are many a wedding photographer who charge way more that what the average joe can afford to spend. But they still find a market.  Then there is average joes uncle who just got a new Nikon and who will shoot the dang thing for a sixpack.  Mandating wages for Doctors just might give us the wedding photo model, with the really good guys working for those with the bucks, and not the average joe. 

[Craig Lamson]

The charges don't surprise me in the least. Been treated in the ER and spent a couple of nights in the hospital recently?

I had a kidney stone last year.  Happened on a weekend and while they found a DR to blast the stone they could not get some other person neededfor the procedure.  So I had an infection, spent a few nights in the hospital, waited for a week and then went in for out patient stone blasting.  Total cost $50K.  Medicare and my supliment paid 12.5K.  Did the hospital/Dr break even?

[faberryman]

I had a kidney stone last year.  Happened on a weekend and while they found a DR to blast the stone they could not get some other person neededfor the procedure.  So I had an infection, spent a few nights in the hospital, waited for a week and then went in for out patient stone blasting.  Total cost $50K.  Medicare and my supliment paid 12.5K.  Did the hospital/Dr break even?

With that experience, I am not sure why you were surprised by the $23,000 charge.

[Rob C]

Isn't that because you can use a European Health Insurance Card* for emergency medical services anywhere in the EU, but not in America?  However, many private European medical insurance policies do cover services in the United States.  (Just as many private U.S. medical insurance policies cover emergency services in other countries.)

―――
*At least until Dec. 31, or whenever the U.K. and the EU complete the transition.

No, nothing to do with it when I travelled for work; in the current situation, travellers within the EEC have a card issued by their state that covers them within the EEC countries for medical, but private travel insurance is still recommended for personal effects, against theft or loss, etc. If one is going to countries outwith Europe medical insurance is and always was essential if you had any sense, but I am not sure if it was simply a matter of common sense or actually of law. I had to go outwith Europe now and then, but insurance was always more costly if I was going to go into America even for a very brief period. It's all a reflection of the uniquely extortionate medical costs if you have a misadventure in the US.

So yes, of course, private insurance for folks going to the States was and is still sure to be available to travellers from elsewhere, including Britain.

It has also been announced that drivers taking their cars from Europe into Britain, and vice versa, will again have to get their insurance company to issue a green card, and if you plan on going into both France and Spain, you need two different International Driving Permits, not one. Complications, complications, more red tape back again.

A new problem facing Brit expats in Spain is that if they want to travel in other European countries, they will now need private medical insurance for the trip because the agreement only covers you for the country in which you reside, it's no longer pan-European as before this debacle. That poses an interesting problem for me if I manage to sell up here and want to keep my car and drive to Britain in it; will I be able to find an insurance company that will cover me for the trip considering my age and heart record? I may have no option but to sell a very low mileage car and take a big hit on that, also creating the interesting question of whether, if I therefore have to allow my present car insurance to lapse, owning no car, will anyone offer me a policy when I want to buy another set of wheels in Britain? Thank you, Boris and Nigel, I hope your monster bites your heads off one day.

[LesPalenik]

Those US hospital bills are terrifying. Almost in the same league as the Martin Shkreli drugs.
Better to fly to Cuba.

[Rob C]

When you took a gig, or me for that matter, did the government tell you what you had to charge to take the job?  Thats my problem with the issue. Its a supposed to be a somewhat of a free market.  If you don't like the offer you move on and hopefully find someone who will pay what you think you are worth or you accept the offer and do the work.  To use photography for an example, I'm sure there are many a wedding photographer who charge way more that what the average joe can afford to spend. But they still find a market.  Then there is average joes uncle who just got a new Nikon and who will shoot the dang thing for a sixpack.  Mandating wages for Doctors just might give us the wedding photo model, with the really good guys working for those with the bucks, and not the average joe.

But you miss the point: they would be prohibited from charging above an agreed level that permits access for Joe or makes his policy impossible. There would be no chance of docs playing the preferences game favouring the very wealthy. Medicine is not the same as any other service: it is the difference between life and death; no gig is in that league, no toy that important. With the job must, surely, come more than greed? For some, apparently not.

Actually, docs are just one example of the problems that come with paying yourself too much money: prices are driven upwards across the entire board because prices depend on how much people think they can get you to pay, and in the end, the new high figures you gloat over are pretty shallow because your own living expenses have also risen. It's the penalty I note from the modern idea of women in careers rather than bringing up kids and running the home: the earning power of working couples rises, and so this is instantly latched upon by the merchandising fraternity and you pay more simply because there is more to be spent, which makes life even tougher for the single person who has to buy much the same stuff, and I can promise you, living alone does not half the living cost of what was once a couple: quite the opposite!

I do not, of course, suggest women should not seek outside employment; I am simply making an observation of the effect that double incomes have on asking prices in the shops. All the women in my family had good educations and high prospects. Those are different matters.

[Craig Lamson]

But you miss the point: they would be prohibited from charging above an agreed level that permits access for Joe or makes his policy impossible. There would be no chance of docs playing the preferences game favouring the very wealthy. Medicine is not the same as any other service: it is the difference between life and death; no gig is in that league, no toy that important. With the job must, surely, come more than greed? For some, apparently not.

Thats even worse.  They have a skill, they should be allowed to sell it for whatever they choose.  Sounds like John Galt is needed.

[Craig Lamson]

With that experience, I am not sure why you were surprised by the $23,000 charge.

It was 50K from the Dr/Hospital.  My insurance ( in the form of the US government and a private insurace that made up the 20% the goverment does not cover) only paid 12.5K.  My point was the DR/Hospital did not get paid enough.  I believe its partly the reason they charge so much if you are coverd by private insurance.  They have to recoup the money they lost dealing with the government somewhere (not to mention the costs they lose from prople they are required to treat but that dont pay).

[PeterAit]

The U.S. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act is a federal statute that requires hospitals with emergency departments that accept government Medicare payments (essentially all hospitals in the United States) to treat and stabilize anyone who requires emergency medical care.  If the patient has medical insurance, the hospital may file an insurance claim on the patient's behalf.  If the patient is not insured, the hospital can request payment, but may not condition treatment on the patient's consent to pay.  There are substantial financial penalties for hospitals and physicians that do not comply with the provisions of the law and no institution is likely to risk loss of Medicare eligibility over failure to treat an emergency patient.  (Incidentally, the charge you cite seems bizarrely high, even if it included sophisticated imaging services such as an MRI.)

As you say, hospitals in the US cannot deny emergency treatment because of inability to pay. But they can send you an outrageous bill and when you cannot pay get a collection agency after you and your credit rating is ruined and your pay is garnished and so on.

[Rob C]

Thats even worse.  They have a skill, they should be allowed to sell it for whatever they choose.  Sounds like John Galt is needed.

He was just a cardboard character to suit a political slant. Did enjoy the book, though.

And nope, I don't believe that all skills are equally suited to the free market concept. Vital services strike me as an obviouse exception to the screw you for what I can model. In the same way, I would preclude police, medics, firemen, transport personnel from any right to strike action: they are simply too vital to the good of the society they serve; understanding and accepting this responsibility should come as part of the job description. Anything else, and it's the perfect extortion setup.

[James Clark]

Actually I dont think its all that groovy when Trump calls people names.  In fact there is a lot I don't like about Trump. I have heard this expressed by other Trump voters as well.  I wish he would curtail his tweets but sadly its his outlet to talk to the world.  But it's who Trump is and I'll take him warts and all over Hillary or the rest.  We never get the perfect candidate, so you need to make a choice or sit on the sidelines.  We singular citizens have very little power to shape our country except for our vote.  So I'll continue to make a choice, and deal with that it brings.

My take on the article is simple.  Many people are really tired of the same old Washington.  They want something differenet and they want someone to take on the old guard.  Watch A Trump rally.  These folks  are telling the country something.  They don't want what 'normal" politicians are selling. Even those on the far left are saying the same thing.  The problem for those who oppose Trump is that its now the squishy middle that is moving his way.  Data collected at his rally show a very large percentage of ticket requests come from self described Democrats and another decent percentage who did not vote last election.  Chris Mathews reported hte other night that a source in Pennsylvania that republician voter registrations are going through the roof.  Polls are showing a big increase in support for Trump from African Americans.  You have to ask why?  Something he is saying or doing is moving them.   

These same people are pretty much sick of the media as well, no doubt egged on by Trump.  But IMO they have good reason.  The media sucks when it comes to Trump...and Trump voters too.  I don't know the current stats and I'm simply too lazy to look them up now but the negative story number is in the 90% range.  Now I don't care how much you dont Like Trump, 90 percent of what he has done as President is not negative.   

I may be from the Midwest but I'm not doing Meth, or any other drug including booze, so my opinion is befing fueled by either.  And I'm reasonably sure its not true for the vast majority of Trump voters either.

So now the question I'll put to you, James, is what do you find so deplorable about that opinion piece?

In short, its nothing but unfocused populist rage that doesn't care who, or what, it breaks.  I understand that there's a swell of people that are fed up with politicians and you're absolutely correct - I see it in Trump folks AND the hardcore Bernie people, and honestly, it's both frustrating and scary.

Frustrating because these people by and large don't take the time to educate themselves on what they actually want (Slobodan posted an NPR article awhile back that quoted some idiot talking about how she "doesn't like" whomever "decided" that a certain cleaning agent was bad for the environment, so she thinks they should be ignored or voted out or something) and it's a proven fact that evidence contrary to imbedded opinion actually makes people dig in harder.  Scary because they're being worked up, deliberately IMHO by Trump, probably Bernie as well, to the point where they just want to break stuff.  And that's BS.  I do care to an extent about disaffection and the legitimate issues people have.  I have nothing for contempt for people that just want to break the world because they've been stirred up for political purposes.