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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 326103 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2140 on: December 17, 2019, 11:56:06 am »

But there are many dictatorships without socialism ... So what is your point ?

Not really sure what your point is here, or is if you are giving way to the classic fallacy of the converse.  Although it is possible to have dictatorships that have not arisen out of socialism, it is not possible to have socialism without a dictatorship. 

(Kind of like, if it is snowing outside, then it is freezing.  But it is not true that if it is freezing, then it must be snowing.  Simple example of the fallacy of the converse.) 

As I said before, this is because people don't just freely hand over their property, it must be taken by force.  And regardless if a socialist leader is elected in, like Chavez, he quickly needs to become a dictator to make the transition to socialism happen. 
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2141 on: December 17, 2019, 12:21:49 pm »

You (all of you) are being pretty circular, arent'cha?  You (Slobodan) are starting with the premise that socialism is something that doesn't work, and then essentially stating that if it does work it can't be socialism.  Bart and others are identifying things that work and assigning the term "socialism" due, I assume, to a heavy degree of public (i.e government or non-private-owned) involvement.   Within that construct, it's no surprise that the people here that dislike "liberal" policies simply define them as "socialism" as a convenient way of dismissing varying degrees of government oversight/regulation/control, even though, in the context of this discussion, really only Bernie Sanders and potentially Elizabeth Warren seem to be actively advocating for state-ownership of a major facet of the US economy.

Carry on.


No, no, no, James. Thoughtful nuance will not cut it in these parts.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2142 on: December 17, 2019, 01:11:32 pm »

Give me a single example of a success by socialism.

Oh, I dunno. Just off the top of my so-called head:

How about the Apollo Program?
Or, the military?  Not exactly a private enterprise success  (Blackwater anyone?)
Or libraries (imagine THEM under the current IP rules)
Or police forces?
Or the fire department?
Or entire families not going bankrupt because someone got sick?

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2143 on: December 17, 2019, 01:34:54 pm »

 ;D ;D ;D

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2144 on: December 17, 2019, 02:20:00 pm »

;D ;D ;D

What?  I mean, those ARE all examples of public services or entities that do their jobs with varying degrees of competence.

No one here is using "socialism" in terms of arguing for the glory of the Soviet state, or for the wholesale nationalization of private property, and while that may be the definition you and some others are using, it's disingenuous to place that definition on others' usage of that term when you know damn well that's not what they mean.  :)

If you want to provide a definition that we can all talk from, that would probably be more productive.
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RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2145 on: December 17, 2019, 02:25:20 pm »

Oh, I dunno. Just off the top of my so-called head:

How about the Apollo Program?
Or, the military?  Not exactly a private enterprise success  (Blackwater anyone?)
Or libraries (imagine THEM under the current IP rules)
Or police forces?
Or the fire department?
Or entire families not going bankrupt because someone got sick?

Yes, Peter, three of these are legitimate functions of government. The Apollo program was not. Libraries are not. Nor are programs that take from one group of people to give to another group of people. That last function was once done much more effectively by local charity, but government wiped out local charity.
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kers

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2146 on: December 17, 2019, 02:27:53 pm »

Not really sure what your point is here, or is if you are giving way to the classic fallacy of the converse.  Although it is possible to have dictatorships that have not arisen out of socialism, it is not possible to have socialism without a dictatorship. 

(Kind of like, if it is snowing outside, then it is freezing.  But it is not true that if it is freezing, then it must be snowing.  Simple example of the fallacy of the converse.) 

As I said before, this is because people don't just freely hand over their property, it must be taken by force.  And regardless if a socialist leader is elected in, like Chavez, he quickly needs to become a dictator to make the transition to socialism happen.

You took a quote from Rob, but what you said did not relate to it;  it made no sense...
Alan is the specialist in this field...
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2147 on: December 17, 2019, 03:14:46 pm »

You took a quote from Rob, but what you said did not relate to it;  it made no sense...
Alan is the specialist in this field...

Well, after looking at it again, I did not really explain myself nor made a good point. 

Rob was trying to imply Venezuela was not a socialist country by saying it is a dictatorship.  I was making the point that socialist countries always devolve into dictatorship.  However, and I guess more to your point, the two are not necessarily related, so it was a falsity on both our parts.  You can not write off a socialist country as not being socialist just because it is also a dictatorship, and vis versa. 

I do contest though that socialism will always devolve into some form of totalitarianism or oppressive regime.  People dont just give up their stuff, so you need to take it from them. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 03:18:50 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2148 on: December 17, 2019, 03:15:09 pm »

What?  I mean, those ARE all examples of public services or entities that do their jobs with varying degrees of competence.

No one here is using "socialism" in terms of arguing for the glory of the Soviet state, or for the wholesale nationalization of private property, and while that may be the definition you and some others are using, it's disingenuous to place that definition on others' usage of that term when you know damn well that's not what they mean.  :)

If you want to provide a definition that we can all talk from, that would probably be more productive.

 ;D ;D ;D

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2149 on: December 17, 2019, 03:20:56 pm »

;D ;D ;D

Boo.  Your heart's not even in trolling today.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 03:24:23 pm by James Clark »
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2150 on: December 17, 2019, 03:24:09 pm »

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2151 on: December 17, 2019, 03:26:00 pm »

Boo.  Your heart's not even in trolling today.   ;D

James, I am stil in the midlle of settling in Belgrade, thus without my desktop and a proper keyboard that made composing longer responses much easier. So bear with me for a while :)

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2152 on: December 17, 2019, 03:27:29 pm »

James, I am stil in the midlle of settling in Belgrade, thus without my desktop and a proper keyboard that made composing longer responses much easier. So bear with me for a while :)

Oh cool!  How long are you there?  Hope you'll be posting pics!
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2153 on: December 17, 2019, 03:51:16 pm »

Oh cool!  How long are you there?  Hope you'll be posting pics!

Looks like for good. If you are coming this way, ping me.

I posted some in the Without Prejudice thread, but I think I will open a separate ongoing thread in the User Critique.

P.S. for those who often complain about acrimonious debates here, it shall be noted it is mostly rhetorical. We can be quite friendly IRL. In addition to James (who I know comes to these regions) everyone is cordially invited to ping me if coming here, for business or pleasure (including Bernard ;) )

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2154 on: December 17, 2019, 03:57:43 pm »

Again, nobody listens, they just restate their earlier position.

Venezuela. Were it formerly socialist, communist or capitalist, the current disaster is dictatorship. That it can arise from different bases is not the argument. The argument concerns itself with what it is now, today.

Britain in the old days being close to pure capitalism. For the vast majority, those old days meant abject, grinding poverty, grime-ridden back-to-back rows of workers slums or, in other cities, tenements built around a square with no air circulating, and in both cases, row or high building, external lavatories. People died of pneumonia and cold every winter; children's diseases swept through society wiping out hundreds if not thousands of kids even before they hit school - if they hit school at all instead of going straight into the chimney stacks or the mines and mills instead. It was only because a point was reached when these folks said hey, enough is enough: we are human too, that new parties began to flex muscles and force through changes into goode olde Britain. Trust me, do you really imagine all those thousands of British GI brides did it because they loved that Gary Cooper accent? Like hell: they swallowed the propaganda crap from the Hollywood movies and imagined all Americans, from coast to coast and all points between lived in cute houses with picket fences and/or had apartments overlooking Central Park. The culture shock that hit them with what they found in the cities and in the sticks showed them they had achieved nothing, just more of what they thought they were escaping, but a long way from family and friends. And that was the mid-forties. And America was fortunate: it never suffered the devastation of nightly bombings, the factories flattened and the near-starvation of city dwellers remote from farming contacts; it's kids were not evacuated, taken out of some of the cities and dumped into remote counties to save them from being flattened along with their homes. The end of WW2 gave American industry the green light to return to servicing consumers, and boy, it did that with a vengeance, and for many it ushered in a fantastic standard of living but by no means for all. It was no coincidence that the 50s led to the most amazing automobiles, rock'n' roll and everybody dreaming there as they did in Britain during that very brief period in the 60s when absolutely everything seemed like it only needed you to get up off your ass and it could all be yours. And for a while the dream was fulfilled.

In case anyone thinks I write about the days of Dickens: I remember Glasgow and how it was when I waved ciao ciao back in '81. I was lucky: I lived next to a beautiful park and in a very nice house of my own. A couple of miles away it was a very different story. Last time I passed the old neighbourhood it looked rather tired, suggesting perhaps that good things go downhill more readily than they can in the opposite direction.

All countries have had their elite, and all elites do their damndest to cling on and keep it as it was or is. That's what the new Conservatives stand for, only they have pulled the amazing trick of persuading turkeys to work for them and to vote for Christmas. Truly an achievement, but just wait until Boxing Day comes around: these turkeys can fight, dead or alive.

And when did British socialism attempt to take away private property? The last time I heard of that being tried was in Portugal, where a short-lived communist regime during the second half of the twentieth century attempted to do it, only to have the population realise that confiscating all those golfing holiday homes down in the Algarve was going to stop the construction business in its tracks and throw thousands of good folks straight onto the rubbish heap. Actually, as with the commies still lurking about in Spain, they shouldn't have bothered: ultra-capitalism such as with the banks and investment/speculation/insurance groups did it for them: the events of 2008 happened without a shot being fired, a vote cast or an opinion sought: all it took was greed and lax governmental oversight. The property market here, as investment, died on its feet, and has yet to reach the morgue. For those just wanting a roof over their head, there is an acute shortage because nobody is willing to build at low profit margins. Many young adults simply can't marry and leave home. And that includes educated people, lots of educated people, which for perhaps the first time (outwith Italy, which has been familiar with that phenomenon since the seventies, at least) shows you that education, too, has lost its golden key for many young people. The entire paradigm has shifted: if you can be a good plumber or electrician you won't starve, because legally or on the black economy, people have to hire you to fix broken pipes and repair burned out wiring. Your degree, unless it's a passport to some rarified stratum of professional life, can just as easily mean nobody wants to hire you because you are over-qualified in something useless, and may probably turn out to be a trouble-maker out of resentment and frustration at yourself and the system you believed in for all those years of study.

The simple truth, I'm afraid, is that mankind being too damned clever for its own good, has managed to turn human beings into excess baggage. Rather than invest in people we have invested in technology which makes many levels of human intelligence and ability too low to be useful. In order to keep the employment figures high enough to prevent riots in the streets, we have allowed the creation of Mcjobs and concepts such as the Uber model where there is no security, no form of guarantee about anything, and no realistic basis upon which to seek bank help in order to buy a home. But hey, the official figures are still reading rosy, with under 2 or 3 percent unemployment. Which kinda makes one wonder why the soup kitchens, why the folks living under bridges if only two percent are without work? Can they all be immigrants?

We have to begin to value people and not buy into the myth that new is always better, that having robots do what people used to do creates new buyers for those products: in order to buy anything, you need to be working and making some money. It's a classically circular situation. No work, no buy.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2155 on: December 17, 2019, 04:07:02 pm »

Rob, you must have access to a proper keyboard, right? :)

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2156 on: December 17, 2019, 04:10:52 pm »

Looks like for good. If you are coming this way, ping me.

I posted some in the Without Prejudice thread, but I think I will open a separate ongoing thread in the User Critique.

P.S. for those who often complain about acrimonious debates here, it shall be noted it is mostly rhetorical. We can be quite friendly IRL. In addition to James (who I know comes to these regions) everyone is cordially invited to ping me if coming here, for business or pleasure (including Bernard ;) )

You have taken with you some extraordinary skills, both linguistic, artistic and professional. You are not dead yet! Don't ever accept that until you don't know that it happened, by which time it won't matter.

I must be twenty years older than you; even I still dream and want to move and begin a new life - to say career would open me to ridicule, my own, too!

Either way, dead or alive, I wish you the very best that's possible.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2157 on: December 17, 2019, 04:11:36 pm »

Rob, you must have access to a proper keyboard, right? :)

IPad. And nothing better to do.

:-)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2158 on: December 17, 2019, 05:03:34 pm »

In his letter to Speaker Pelosi, President Trump who has never shown any indication that he has any religious principles, accuses Speaker Pelosi of hypocrisy, "You are offending Americans of faith by continually saying ‘I pray for the President,’ when you know this statement is not true, unless it is meant in a negative sense.”  More exciting news from the President's personal lawyer, Mr. Giuliani who admits to forcing the former ambassador to the Ukraine out of office.  Why can't this man just keep his mouth shut?  He's digging a big hole for himself and the President.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #2159 on: December 17, 2019, 05:36:50 pm »

Seriously, lighten up.  It was pretty obvious my "there is room for improvement" comment was just a quip. 

But anyway, getting back to your private vs. state argument, what would the state have done differently to avoid the humanitarian crisis?  Would they have built a whole new, but unoccupied, city, just waiting in the wings for a catastrophe? 

I just cant see how having the state owning the power company would have made the humianrtian crisis any less severe.

Seriously?

Let me give you one obvious hint... by funding the rebuild of houses for the people who had to leave theirs as a result of the melt down of Fukushima reactors?

Cheers,
Bernard
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