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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 136582 times)

John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #500 on: October 23, 2019, 02:02:24 pm »

Slobodan is correct about people switching parties to vote in primaries. In an open primary, you may vote for whichever party candidate you wish (but you can only vote for one person.) In other words, you may vote in the Republican primary or the Democratic primary, but not both. In states with open primaries, occasionally you'll have campaign situations in which, say, the Democratic candidate has a lock on the election, but the Republican race is close, between a moderate and a very conservative candidate -- in which case, Democratic voters may be encouraged to vote in the Republican primary, in hopes of electing the more moderate candidate, so no matter what happens in the final election, the conservative will be shut out. In a closed primary, you have to register in advance, often well in advance, to vote in a primary. Some states don't have primaries. The Trump campaign is trying to eliminate primaries in states where he controls the local party, but might lose a primary. (e.g. Arizona.)

About our electoral college. It has its disadvantages -- a candidate can win without a plurality of the vote, as Trump did. In some cases, neither Presidential candidate wins a *majority* of the vote, because third parties do soak up a few percentage points. Gore would have won the election in 2000, rather than Bush, if a relatively strong third party candidate (Ralph Nader) hadn't soaked up quite a few normally Democratic votes in Florida. One reason to continue the electoral party is to assure that all of the US in covered by the candidates. There are vast swaths of America that would never see a candidate if not for the electoral college --- why campaign anywhere between the Mississippi and the coastal ranges when the distances are large and the population is sparse? Better to focus on the coasts, where your buck buys much more head count. But that interior area, when included in the electoral college, can move elections, as it did with Trump.

Parliamentary systems have some advantages over our executive system, but they may also develop really crippling disadvantages, as is evident in the current situation in Israel, where very minor parties can demand, and get, pay-offs to their small minority positions. In Israel, it's been basically the extremely conservative religious parties that have kept Netanyahu in power, even though a large majority of Israelis, including most of Netanyahu's larger-party allies, strongly disagree with the demands of the religious parties. But, if you want the power, you have to pay them off. That mostly happens in narrowly balanced parliaments -- as Britain is finding out now, trying to deal with Northern Ireland on the Brexit issue.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #501 on: October 23, 2019, 02:03:58 pm »

Why would you want to take a competitor's advice?

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #502 on: October 23, 2019, 02:04:34 pm »

Don't know why you want to portrait yourself as unnecessarily more dim than you actually are, but let's explain.

I have made it perfectly clear that gratuitous personal abuse will not be tolerated, Bart. That sentence is unacceptable, subsequent "explanation" or no. Don't do it again.

Jeremy
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #503 on: October 23, 2019, 02:57:03 pm »

I have made it perfectly clear that gratuitous personal abuse will not be tolerated, Bart. That sentence is unacceptable, subsequent "explanation" or no. Don't do it again.

Jeremy

That's fine Jeremy.

To avoid offending anyone, I've started removing my LuLa contributions. Let's see how that affects the signal to noise ratio.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #504 on: October 23, 2019, 03:13:01 pm »

The electoral college, plain and simple.  Since it is a winner takes all in the state vote, third party candidates typically never stand a chance at even winning some electoral votes.  So from a party forming perspective, why bother trying to create a third parties if you know you will never have any national influence in the executive branch.  This is exactly why Bernie is running as a Dem, even though he is not really one.
Didn't Ralph Nader have a major impact on the executive branch in 2000?
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brandon

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #505 on: October 23, 2019, 03:37:27 pm »

That's fine Jeremy.

To avoid offending anyone, I've started removing my LuLa contributions. Let's see how that affects the signal to noise ratio.

Cheers,
Bart

Please dont Bart! Yours are the main reason to visit the site!
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #506 on: October 23, 2019, 03:48:07 pm »

Third party candidate Ross Perot helped Bill Clinton beat the first Bush president in 1992.  Third party candidates have often been spoilers but they've never won as far as I know.  The reason we don't have two main parties is because the electoral system requires a 50%+ majority of votes unlike a parliamentary system.  That encourages people to join up into single parties so you can amass enough votes to get your candidate over the 50% mark.  States follow the same rationale although they might split their electors. But only a couple of the 50 states do that.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #507 on: October 23, 2019, 04:18:57 pm »

How do you get on the electoral roll in the US? Is it possible to be eligible but then denied the vote because you haven't fulfilled some other obligation, e.g., sign up for something, register somewhere, etc.?  Does your presence on one electoral roll, say federal, mean that you are automatically enrolled for state elections, or municipal elections?

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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #508 on: October 23, 2019, 04:39:59 pm »

How do you get on the electoral roll in the US? Is it possible to be eligible but then denied the vote because you haven't fulfilled some other obligation, e.g., sign up for something, register somewhere, etc.?  Does your presence on one electoral roll, say federal, mean that you are automatically enrolled for state elections, or municipal elections?


Every state has their own rules because each state is sovereign.  My wife an I just voted by mail for mayor, sheriff, school officials,  and other local officials who have their hand in the till.  :), a procedure allowed in the State of New Jersey.  Enrollment is by state, not Federally.  There are no federal enrollments. Since all federal officials except the President represent only the whole state in the case of senators or a particular election district in the states for Representative for Congress.  You can't vote for officials in other states.  You can only vote where you live and are registered to vote.  You can only register in one state at a time.  It;'s illegal to vote in two states.
Some small populated state have only one congressman.  But each State has two senators.  Also, a person votes for electors in their state who then place the vote for the president.  So you see, all the votes for federal officials come through the state.  There's no need for Federal enrollment. As far as I know, once you register to vote, you're covered for all elections, federal, state, and local

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #509 on: October 23, 2019, 04:41:19 pm »

Just to clarify, having your hand in the till is a procedure not allowed.  It's voting by mail that's allowed.  :)

Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #510 on: October 23, 2019, 05:38:24 pm »

Every state has their own rules because each state is sovereign.

One small but significant correction for those who may not be thoroughly familiar with the U.S. federal system.  The states are not sovereign; they relinquished their sovereignty in 1788, when they ratified the constitution.  They retain "[t]he powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, . . . or [reserved] to the people."

The states do have rather more autonomy than the states in most (maybe all) other federated countries, in part because the federal government was originally a creation of the states.  There is no tradition of top-down political authority in the United States: after the English colonies became independent of the Crown, they were effectively separate countries.  (That didn't last long.  Five years after declaring their independence, the states adopted a confederation plan that—in some respects, at least—might be analogized to the European Union.)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 07:31:56 pm by Chris Kern »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #511 on: October 23, 2019, 05:49:15 pm »

This may be picky and even tortured logic, Chris, and I understand your point.  But they're sovereign in all areas where they haven't relinquished their sovereignty in the enumerated powers given to the Federal government.  States rights is certainly a big issue.  It was the reason for the Civil War.  It's still a big issue as recently ruled by the SCOTUS when they refused to interfere in gerrymandering leaving each "sovereign" state to figure it out. 

Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #512 on: October 23, 2019, 05:53:40 pm »

But they're sovereign in all areas where they haven't relinquished their sovereignty in the enumerated powers given to the Federal government.

Nope.  Sovereignty is absolute.  If it isn't absolute, it isn't sovereignty.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #513 on: October 23, 2019, 06:00:32 pm »

Nope.  Sovereignty is absolute.  If it isn't absolute, it isn't sovereignty.
I submit to your definition.  :)  Just to clarify the original question though, within states' non-absolute authority, they each determine the rules for their state how their residents vote as long as their rules do not violate the Constitution of the United States.  I hope I got it right this time. :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #514 on: October 23, 2019, 06:02:43 pm »

Nope.  Sovereignty is absolute.  If it isn't absolute, it isn't sovereignty.
You know, that's what my wife keeps telling me.

Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #515 on: October 23, 2019, 06:38:56 pm »

Just to clarify the original question though, within states' non-absolute authority, they each determine the rules for their state how their residents vote as long as their rules do not violate the Constitution of the United States.  I hope I got it right this time. :)

Afraid not: the states' voting regimes must also conform to the requirements of federal statutes—for example, the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 07:33:08 pm by Chris Kern »
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John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #516 on: October 23, 2019, 07:58:20 pm »

How do you get on the electoral roll in the US? Is it possible to be eligible but then denied the vote because you haven't fulfilled some other obligation, e.g., sign up for something, register somewhere, etc.?  Does your presence on one electoral roll, say federal, mean that you are automatically enrolled for state elections, or municipal elections?

To answer the question, the lowest administrative voting level in the US is usually a city (town, township) or, occasionally, a county if there is no substantial city in that county. You would sign up to vote with your town or county. Usually (and in my experience, virtually always) when you sign up to vote at the lowest level, you're also signing up to vote at every level, up to and including federal elections. In the case of the fifty states, the states are the highest level of voting *bureaucracy.* The federal government makes some of the rules governing voting rights, but does not administer voting per se,* although the federal courts may get involved, and have gotten involved in the past, all the way to the Supreme Court, as in the Bush-Gore struggle in Florida in 2000.

In many places, however, you can register to vote even as late as election day. Registration deadlines are set by the state. In some places, there are onerous registration requirements designed to keep minorities off the voting rolls. Those rules are set by each state. The federal government bans discrimination by race, religion, etc., but some of the states, governed by bigots, have found myriad ways to get around the requirement. For example, a few states have had a rule that when you register, you must be checked for outstanding warrants -- and further, the registration deadline may be quite some time before the election. Minorities in those areas maybe be much poorer and less educated than the majority (and so have a higher percentage of such things as warrants for failure to provide child support.) They may be frightened by such requirements and shy away from registering, or, living in isolated rural areas, may not realize what the deadline for registration is.
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There are some even lower levels of voting than a town or county, for example, special tax districts, school districts, etc. But to vote in those elections, you'd usually sign up at the town or county level. The precinct in which you vote would be included in that lower level special tax district or school district, and other people voting that same day, in other precincts outside that special tax district, would not see that special tax district or school board election on their ballot.

*Washington DC is not a state. The District of Columbia is a federal estate, administered by the federal government, through an elected city government. DC has neither federal Senators or Representatives, but residents can vote for President, and the district gets as many electoral college votes as the least populous US state. Puerto Ricans are American citizens, but cannot vote for President and have not senators or representatives.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #517 on: October 23, 2019, 09:20:11 pm »

Thanks all.

What sounds the most odd to me (from Canada) is the concept of primaries and public voting in them, whether party affiliation is required or not. There is no equivalent to that here. Political parties decide internally who they choose to stand for office in each riding (district is the nearest equiv to you, I believe) with no input from the public. The selection of who stands for office has no connection with voter eligibility, either formal or informal.

Getting on the electoral roll here is a bureaucratic process, completely separate from politics, not unlike getting a driver's license or applying for old age pension, and is supervised by a federal government department set up for the purpose, called Elections Canada. I have never heard of a political party trying to interfere in its workings. If it ever happened, it would be a career-ending move by the politician who tried and put the party to which he/she belonged in deep sh*t. It may even be a criminal offence, but I don't really know about that. Maybe some other readers know more about that.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #518 on: October 23, 2019, 10:30:10 pm »

Afraid not: the states' voting regimes must also conform to the requirements of federal statutes—for example, the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
Not trying to be picky.  But if Congress is passing laws, they're operating under the constitution.  So states are ultimately abiding by the constitution. 

Curious.  What powers granted in the constitution give Congress the right to legislate regulation of state election laws?  Especially in light of the recent decision that gerrymandering control is not part of the constitution to be regulated by the federal government.  Separately, if the constitution grants Congress the right to regulate voting rights, wouldn't they have the authority to ultimately regulate common voting procedures across the board for all 50 states?

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #519 on: October 23, 2019, 10:43:12 pm »

Thanks all.

What sounds the most odd to me (from Canada) is the concept of primaries and public voting in them, whether party affiliation is required or not. There is no equivalent to that here. Political parties decide internally who they choose to stand for office in each riding (district is the nearest equiv to you, I believe) with no input from the public. The selection of who stands for office has no connection with voter eligibility, either formal or informal.

Getting on the electoral roll here is a bureaucratic process, completely separate from politics, not unlike getting a driver's license or applying for old age pension, and is supervised by a federal government department set up for the purpose, called Elections Canada. I have never heard of a political party trying to interfere in its workings. If it ever happened, it would be a career-ending move by the politician who tried and put the party to which he/she belonged in deep sh*t. It may even be a criminal offence, but I don't really know about that. Maybe some other readers know more about that.

America used to have that as well.  It was basically well-connected insiders in back rooms, dark and smoky, making insider deals with each other splitting up the spoils of political victory.  Very undemocratic.  It still goes on to a certain extent.  However, opening the windows to let in fresh air  made it more democratic.  One of the problems the Democratic party had in 2016 is superdelegates.  These are people who have clout like party insiders, high positioned elected Democrats like GOvernors and senators.  They had the ability to vote who they wanted to vote for.  They were not restricted by votes from the public.  They made up a large portion of the people who selected Hillary. The Clintons had "locked" up these votes prior to the start of the nomination process.  That's why Trump was calling the whole process as being corrupt.  Sanders was screwed from day one.  He was competing with one hand tied behind his back.  Poor guy never had a chance.  It would be impossible for him to overcome these "set aside" votes.  Afterwards, everyone lambasted the Democratic party as being Undemocratic.  The irony of it. The Republican party doesn;t have superdelegates as far as I'm aware.

Because of the complaints, the Democrat party changed their procedures.  I believe they still have superdelegates.  But they can't be used unless the first round of voting for the nominee does not get a majority.  Then they can go back to their shifty ways.  :)
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