Impeaching Donald Trump

[faberryman]

Trump is fighting back.  You don't really think he'll just roll over do you?

Is that what you are doing? Fighting back? By deflecting the discussion to other topics?

[Alan Klein]

I was responding to other posts about wages.  Go complain to them. 

[JoeKitchen]

Looks like a lot of assumptions there; do you really believe that automation, to the max affordable and possible, is being hampered out of some desire to keep paying employees a salary? You have to be kidding. Business is about getting the most out for the least in; with a qualifier: artists and also shamateur photographers who have an ability to live on air and ego. Instead of cheap photos and paintings, they should conspire to market that ability to thrive on nothing. They would clean up big time, not a couple of cents on the dollar.

Regarding teenagers and their worth not topping fifteen bucks an hour: you are badly out of touch: consider influencers and sports people and musos. And they are just the media-visible ones, and don't include those working their way through college and mowing lawns and washing cars. I won't mention the red light "workers" and drugs mules etc. etc. all of whom are worth a great deal more. The child labour market is supposed to be officially dead; many teens can do the same job as older people whose only attribute is an older passport number.

In fact, your position reads like something my grandparents might have espoused in the 50s.

:-)

Rob, with current wages, automation and using robots/machines are too expensive.  It is cheaper to use labor, which is why it has not taken off yet.  However, if wages were suddenly and artificially raised to $15 an hour, automating jobs with machines becomes cheaper that using labor.  So business will start to use machines instead of people for many more jobs. 

Insofar as you teenager example, you are siting very exceptional and unique kids, by far not the norm.  A normal teenager who is more concerned with partying and chasing girls, or guys, around and who has no skills yet is not worth $15 an hour.  No employer would hire a kid for that much. 

[Rob C]

Rob, with current wages, automation and using robots/machines are too expensive.  It is cheaper to use labor, which is why it has not taken off yet.  However, if wages were suddenly and artificially raised to $15 an hour, automating jobs with machines becomes cheaper that using labor.  So business will start to use machines instead of people for many more jobs. 

Insofar as you teenager example, you are siting very exceptional and unique kids, by far not the norm.  A normal teenager who is more concerned with partying and chasing girls, or guys, around and who has no skills yet is not worth $15 an hour.  No employer would hire a kid for that much.

Automation has taken off; look at car factories, for one example. They used to be full of human drones, but now there are mainly robots and skilled workers tending robots. A few months ago I watched a fascinating programme about the making of BMW's Mini. Mostly robotic poduction, extreme accuracy and, get this: being the product it is, BMW still manages to market them way above the comparative value level of what the things are. Automation has brought them huge benefits in profitability. And mobility: as the company never ceases to warn the ardent Brexiteers.

Regarding the teenagers: yes, of couse the ones I quoted are notable exceptions; it was a response to your blanket assertion that none was worth that sum.

My daughter is a teacher in Scotland. One of her problems is finding a convincing reply to those unwilling students kept in school by law and age, who ask her why they are being held captive, being taught a lot of irrelevant stuff whilst their mate is out there as a plumber or electrician and making a thousand quid a week, which is close to double what a fully qualified, highly educated school teacher normally makes...

Rob

[JoeKitchen]

Automation has taken off; look at car factories, for one example. They used to be full of human drones, but now there are mainly robots and skilled workers tending robots. A few months ago I watched a fascinating programme about the making of BMW's Mini. Mostly robotic poduction, extreme accuracy and, get this: being the product it is, BMW still manages to market them way above the comparative value level of what the things are. Automation has brought them huge benefits in profitability. And mobility: as the company never ceases to warn the ardent Brexiteers.

Regarding the teenagers: yes, of couse the ones I quoted are notable exceptions; it was a response to your blanket assertion that none was worth that sum.

My daughter is a teacher in Scotland. One of her problems is finding a convincing reply to those unwilling students kept in school by law and age, who ask her why they are being held captive, being taught a lot of irrelevant stuff whilst their mate is out there as a plumber or electrician and making a thousand quid a week, which is close to double what a fully qualified, highly educated school teacher normally makes...

Rob

For manufacturing, yes automation has taken off, but it could be more so.  In retail and service, it has not yet, but that will change if the wages up. 

Insofar as your plumber and electrician examples, for years we have been teaching all kids like they should college bound and put our noses up at craft-mans.  So there is a shortage of these people, which means they can charge a decent amount.  Supply and demand. 

[JoeKitchen]

That's why in my country we use a progressive scale, 'Minimum Youth Wage' starting at the age of 15 to 21, and 'Minimum Wage' for ages 21 and more it's at a fixed level.

BTW, Letting people earn a living wage can also boost the economy. That's more likely to happen than with giving tax-breaks to the super rich. Afterall how many additional meals can that upper 1 % buy...?

But, we're engaged in topic drift.

Cheers,
Bart

First, interesting idea on the progressive scale.  Over here I would not hold my breath in getting something like this passed though.  With our current political status, it appears to all or nothing nowadays. 

2nd, lets not forget the super rich typically have their capital invested in the economy some how.  The idea that most are like Scrooge McDuck hoarding all of their money in a giant vault is false.  Not to mention, well designed tax breaks do help normal people too.  Even though the left in my country will never admit it, the Trump tax cuts helped everyone.  For example, he gave a 20% discount on the taxable income for all pass through businesses (those business where the money passes directly to the owner without using payroll), and nearly all small businesses are pass through.  Only C corporations have no pass through process.  It was a nice break for me when I did my taxes. 

Even my brother, who is a self-employed left wing political consultant, got a nice break, although he would never admit it publicly. 

[Frans Waterlander]

That's why in my country we use a progressive scale, 'Minimum Youth Wage' starting at the age of 15 to 21, and 'Minimum Wage' for ages 21 and more it's at a fixed level.

Ah, the socialist ideal! Control the masses, including how much to pay a teenager. Guess why we moved from the Netherlands to the US?

[faberryman]

More thread drift. Is everyone ADD?

[RSL]

It's not "thread drift" at all, Fab. Who do you think has been trying to mount a coup against Trump since the day the election returns were in? Answer: the whole wild socialist lineup. They couldn't even stand "lunch bucket" Joe Biden, even though he kowtowed to the far left in order to stay in the race. These people want exactly what Bart's describing.

[Alan Klein]

The thread isn't drifting talking about socialist drift for the country.  The key candidate, Democrat Elizabeth Warren, suggests major takeover by government.  The attacks on Trump are  an attempt to eliminate his pro-business, anti socialism re-election.  Installing a major socialist like Warren will have permanent economic effects on America and the world.  Hate to say it, but I'd rather have Hillary Clinton.

Frans is right about minimum wage however you structure it.  It's government getting involved in deciding what best for business and people.  A terrible idea.  Picking winners and losers is a losing proposition for the country - any country.  In any case, minimum wage, as Joe described, will drive business more to automation eliminating jobs at the lower end for poorer people and teens.  Of course there will be more jobs for manufacturing computers (in China?) and of course there will be higher paying jobs for technicians and installers.  Have you been in McDonald's lately.  There's only one person taking orders when there were more before.  They pick up the orders with computer ordering screens where customers tap in their orders and pay with their credit cards.  There's no human taking your order.  More low income jobs lost.  I see it in other fast food places.  Pretty soon the government will limit salaries for high paying jobs and then middle income jobs too.  Central planning is next; takeover of business afterwards.  That's what Sanders and a bunch of the other candidates want.  Then you lose your liberty.  The economy suffers.

[Alan Klein]

Trumps approval rating up since the Ukraine issue started.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/464072-trumps-approval-ticks-to-up-to-highest-level-since-december

People are OK with him investigating those crooks the Bidens.  That's why he was elected.  To clean up the swamp.

"To really be mad at Trump for asking foreign leaders to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden or Hillary Clinton, the voters need to believe that Clinton and the Bidens aren’t inherently corrupt. They must also believe that just about all the rules and established groups within American government, especially the intelligence community, deserve unquestioned respect.

Here’s a newsflash: a very large number of Americans don’t have that trust and respect, and they’re generally OK with Trump being the junkyard dog who digs it all out.

This is Donald Trump’s brand."
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/04/heres-why-trumps-poll-numbers-are-defying-the-impeachment-mess.html

[faberryman]

Have you been in McDonald's lately.  There's only one person taking orders when there were more before.  They pick up the orders with computer ordering screens where customers tap in their orders and pay with their credit cards.  There's no human taking your order.  More low income jobs lost.

I don't frequent fast food joints, so I guess I am out of the loop. I guess Egg McMuffins make themselves nowadays.

[Rob C]

I don't frequent fast food joints, so I guess I am out of the loop. I guess Egg McMuffins make themselves nowadays.

Here in Mallorca, the difficulty is hanging on to cooks. They come and go, and the same with waiters; some actually do return to places they abandoned and seem to be taken back with open arms, and all of this despite high youth unemployment. A lot really is work-shy. And again, it comes down to talent and also the ability to get along with and survive the nerve tantrums of owners with so much riding on the last meal a customer enjoys - or not.

Free lunches are rare, either side of the kitchen doors.

[faberryman]

So you can pay someone who is 21+ years old a wage befitting a 15 year old?

The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour (€6.6/hour). Twenty-nine states have higher minimum wages.

[BernardLanguillier]

It's not "thread drift" at all, Fab. Who do you think has been trying to mount a coup against Trump since the day the election returns were in? Answer: the whole wild socialist lineup. They couldn't even stand "lunch bucket" Joe Biden, even though he kowtowed to the far left in order to stay in the race. These people want exactly what Bart's describing.

Who needs a coup when Trump himself is demonstrating this clearly his unfitness for the job?

Aren’t you concerned that your candidate doesn’t understand that he is violating the same constitution he uses all the time to justify mass shootings?

How blind do you need to be to see where this is taking you?

Your very concerns about how far left things could go if the Democrats won should be ample proof that Joe Biden is the main adversary of Trump and that it is both illegal and unethical to try to use foreign influences to dig dirt on your main opponent?

Is democracy still important for you?

Cheers,
Bernard

[faberryman]

Stockholm syndrome.

[Alan Klein]

Who needs a coup when Trump himself is demonstrating this clearly his unfitness for the job?

Aren’t you concerned that your candidate doesn’t understand that he is violating the same constitution he uses all the time to justify mass shootings?

How blind do you need to be to see where this is taking you?

Your very concerns about how far left things could go if the Democrats won should be ample proof that Joe Biden is the main adversary of Trump and that it is both illegal and unethical to try to use foreign influences to dig dirt on your main opponent?

Is democracy still important for you?

Cheers,
Bernard

It seems you only want to draw the line on Trump.  Yet you apparently approve that Joe Biden used his position as Vice President to stop a foreign investigation of criminal activity related to his son Hunter Biden's work in the Ukraine.  Isn't what Biden did criminal?  Shouldn't that be investigated? Or do you think only Trump should be investigated for collusion with the Russians in 2016 based on a dossier prepared by British and Russian spies who were paid $10 million dollars by Trump's presidential opponent, Democrat Hillary Clinton?  Just where do you draw the lines? 

[Alan Klein]

I don't frequent fast food joints, so I guess I am out of the loop. I guess Egg McMuffins make themselves nowadays.

I said there are less order takers not less cooks or preparers.  On the other hand, it's possible fast food restaurants are using more automation to prepare the food as well.   

[Alan Klein]

Impeaching Trump may be the only way to beat him.

U.S. Sees 50-Year Low Unemployment Rate
"“Thanks to our pro-American agenda, the economy is booming, wages are rising and poverty is plummeting,” said President Trump. “3.5 percent — people didn’t think they were going to see that."[/size]
https://www.oann.com/u-s-sees-50-year-low-unemployment-rate/

[Alan Klein]

There was a discussion about American antique muscle cars either here in this or another recent thread.  Forget which.  Anyway, our community had an antique and late model muscle car show here in New Jersey in my community today.  We do it once a year.  Thought you'd be interested in seeing some hot cars.  Mainly American cars but there was a Triumph or MG and a Spitfire owned by some Scottish lad there with a thick accent and kilts.  He's in there too. You can tune into the video up to 4K bandwidth or smaller.  Hit full screen for better view. Good muscle car music with it from The Beach Boys.  So turn up the volume. Here's the Youtube link. About 4 minutes run time.  Enjoy.
https://youtu.be/MogdCeRNqBM