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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 137133 times)

Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2019, 08:54:53 pm »

The "appearance" that Trump colluded with the Russians was a setup by Democrats and people who hate Trump.

Nice deflection.  I didn't ask about Russia, I asked about Ukraine.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2019, 08:57:28 pm »

Nice deflection.  I didn't ask about Russia, I asked about Ukraine.
Well of course,  Russian collusion didn't work.  Obstruction fizzled out.  So now you'll try Ukraine.   What's after that? 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2019, 09:11:17 pm »

So, it's not important what he appears to have done?

What he did was neither a high crime nor misdemeanor.  If you feel otherwise, please provide the criminal code he violated. 

Dont worry though, you will be able to vote against him in 2020, which is how it is suppose to work. 

This is like the boy who cried wolf.  Nobody but bleeding hearts really care.  Show me an actual crime and you have my attention, not some supposed quid pro quo Schiff literally had to make up because the actual text did not support it. 

What people really care about are stories like this: South Jersey officials firing back after accused child rapist released before deportation proceedings.  When voters go to the polls next year, these are the stories that will be on peoples' minds.  Not some phone call Trump made with a foreign leader that had no actual criminal activity in it.  All politics is local! 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 09:26:41 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2019, 10:00:52 pm »

What he did was neither a high crime nor misdemeanor. 

I suggested nothing. I asked Alan if what he (Trump) appeared to have done was important.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #84 on: October 01, 2019, 10:23:07 pm »

I suggested nothing. I asked Alan if what he (Trump) appeared to have done was important.
Well I want to know if beating your wife is important?   :-\

Ivo_B

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2019, 12:11:17 am »

Well of course,  Russian collusion didn't work.  Obstruction fizzled out.  So now you'll try Ukraine.   What's after that?

A juicy #MeToo complaint!
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Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2019, 08:55:14 am »

It could prove interesting to discover the proportion of Republican voter that, whilst faithful to party, come what may, actually disapproves of Trump, the man. And by extension, whether loyalty to party extends even to times when that party goes against the particular voter's own beliefs.

I had always been an arch Tory, but now, I could never vote for them again unless they became something quite different to the vicious, blindly rabid tail - tail? not even a tail, but a tiny inner cancer - that is currently wagging the entire dog.

Rob

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2019, 09:07:25 am »


I had always been an arch Tory, but now, I could never vote for them again unless they became something quite different to the vicious, blindly rabid tail - tail? not even a tail, but a tiny inner cancer - that is currently wagging the entire dog.


Conservative doesn't mean what it used to. Neither does progressive. Human society has obviously evolved into mixed economies because the extremes don't work. If they worked, we'd be living in them. We should be tweaking things, trying to make like better. But we don't do that, it's too boring maybe.

So we have left-wing loonies lost in their "safe space" fantasy world instead of worrying about the loss of middle-calls income in the last generation, something they could actually do something about. And we have "right-wing" crazies who think they have the right to tell other women what to do with their bodies while decrying "religious" head scarves in other cultures. It's 24/7 wall-to-wall bullsh*t now.

People who are lost vote for strong men thinking that the strong men are on their side, but strong men are only ever on their own side.
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degrub

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2019, 09:21:05 am »

....as it ever was and ever will be...as humanity marches to it doom.  :o
Mordor and the White Tower....
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RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2019, 09:39:36 am »

C'mon you guys. According to history we've been through worse crap than this. General craziness, like the climate, goes in cycles. All we really can do is wait it out.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2019, 09:42:05 am »

Conservative doesn't mean what it used to. Neither does progressive. Human society has obviously evolved into mixed economies because the extremes don't work. If they worked, we'd be living in them. We should be tweaking things, trying to make like better. But we don't do that, it's too boring maybe.

So we have left-wing loonies lost in their "safe space" fantasy world instead of worrying about the loss of middle-calls income in the last generation, something they could actually do something about. And we have "right-wing" crazies who think they have the right to tell other women what to do with their bodies while decrying "religious" head scarves in other cultures. It's 24/7 wall-to-wall bullsh*t now.

People who are lost vote for strong men thinking that the strong men are on their side, but strong men are only ever on their own side.

I agree with you that there are strong men on all sides who would have government and them impose their beliefs on us.  Which is why you need a strong and respected Constitution that limits governmental power.  Unfortunately, people are lazy, ignorant, and greedy and think "their" guy won;t be a tyrant.  One day they wake up and they're living in Venezuela.  Or worse. 

faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2019, 09:47:37 am »

I agree with you that there are strong men on all sides who would have government and them impose their beliefs on us.  Which is why you need a strong and respected Constitution that limits governmental power.  Unfortunately, people are lazy, ignorant, and greedy and think "their" guy won;t be a tyrant.  One day they wake up and they're living in Venezuela.  Or worse.
Oh, the irony.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #92 on: October 02, 2019, 09:52:46 am »

It could prove interesting to discover the proportion of Republican voter that, whilst faithful to party, come what may, actually disapproves of Trump, the man. And by extension, whether loyalty to party extends even to times when that party goes against the particular voter's own beliefs.

I had always been an arch Tory, but now, I could never vote for them again unless they became something quite different to the vicious, blindly rabid tail - tail? not even a tail, but a tiny inner cancer - that is currently wagging the entire dog.

Rob

The problem here is that the Dems need to elect someone who is not batshit crazy. 

Trump vs Biden is very much up in the air.  I am not liking the role Giuliani played in this whole thing; he is Trump's personal lawyer and should not be involved with state affairs.  So, who knows in that election whom I would vote for. 

However with Warren, there is no way I would ever vote for her.  Her policies' would be disastrous.  I am also not a believer in 3rd party candidates since they never stand a chance.  I would enthusiastically vote against Warren with little to no concern for what her opponent did. 
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Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #93 on: October 02, 2019, 10:37:58 am »

It could prove interesting to discover the proportion of Republican voter that, whilst faithful to party, come what may, actually disapproves of Trump, the man. And by extension, whether loyalty to party extends even to times when that party goes against the particular voter's own beliefs.

Yes, indeed: the three significant policy initiatives of the Trump Administration that are genuinely Trumpian—more restrictive border controls, protectionist tariffs on imports, and an isolationist approach to foreign relations—are more closely aligned with national Democratic than Republican doctrine.  (The fourth major policy initiative, an income tax reduction skewed to provide most of its benefit to businesses and wealthy individuals in order to encourage capital formation, is consistent with the views of traditional Republicans.  However, it was the product of negotiation between Paul Ryan, then the Republican speaker of the House of Representatives,* and the anti-tax "Freedom Coalition" faction of his party; based on his claims that it was intended to benefit the middle class, it's not clear whether Trump ever actually understood the new tax provisions.)

But with respect to impeachment, I suspect what will determine whether Trump is removed from office will be the political calculation of the Republican members of the House of Representatives, which would vote whether to bring Trump to trial, and the Senate, where the trial would be conducted.**  I wouldn't be surprised if a considerable number of the Republicans in both chambers would prefer to be running with someone other than Trump as their presidential candidate next year, but they're also leery of offending the Trump "base," which contains a high proportion of non-traditional Republican voters.  The latter are highly motivated, and capable of threatening the careers of incumbent Republicans who they consider anti-Trump by challenging them in the intraparty state "primary" elections that will be held in the spring.

Timing will be important to these on-the-fence Republican members of Congress.  If the votes in the House of Representatives (impeachment) and Senate (conviction) come after the primary election season, and if the evidence against Trump appears convincing, the persuadable Republicans may feel that removing him and selecting a different presidential candidate would both improve their own chances of being re-elected and of holding the White House for another four-year term.  Especially if the Democrats appear on the way to selecting a presidential candidate from the left wing of their party, for example Senator Elizabeth Warren, a traditional Republican like Mitt Romney, senator from Utah and a former presidential candidate, would be able to run from the center and possibly secure a larger proportion of the critical suburban vote than Trump.

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*In the United States, the speaker of the House of Representatives is a party leader, not a neutral presiding officer of the chamber.

**The Democratic majority in the House of Representatives has enough votes to impeach Trump, assuming not too many of its members dissent.  But the participation of a significant number of Republican representatives would no doubt increase the probability of conviction in the Senate.  A two-thirds supermajority would be needed to remove Trump from office, which would require Republican votes.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2019, 11:01:29 am »

The use of impeachment to get rid of presidents we don't like is terrible for governance.  That's what elections are for. 

RSL

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2019, 11:11:52 am »

It could prove interesting to discover the proportion of Republican voter that, whilst faithful to party, come what may, actually disapproves of Trump, the man. And by extension, whether loyalty to party extends even to times when that party goes against the particular voter's own beliefs.

I had always been an arch Tory, but now, I could never vote for them again unless they became something quite different to the vicious, blindly rabid tail - tail? not even a tail, but a tiny inner cancer - that is currently wagging the entire dog.

Rob

Hi Rob, It gets pretty complicated: As a person, I think Trump stinks. But I have to consider what he's done and against whom he's running. Trump made promises during the election and followed through on all of them, or at least tried. That fact is almost unique in political history. In spite of the left-wing propaganda put out by our captive "press," the results have been very favorable, especially for the middle class and "people of color." The "press" never will admit that, but statistics make clear it's true. The other complication is the array of people running against him in the coming election. They all seem obviously insane, except for "lunch-bucket" Joe Biden, who turns out to be nothing more than a befuddled liar. Seems a nice guy, but the crap he's done with son Hunter in Ukraine makes it clear he's also a crook.

So, whaddya do? I know what I'll do: I'll vote for the guy who stinks, but honestly tries to improve things. He's got way too big a mouth, and I think he's wrong about a lot of stuff, especially his tariffs, but. . . what the hell? I've gotta look at the alternatives. Seems to me most of life is like that. Wish it were simpler, but it just ain't.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2019, 12:51:26 pm »

Oh, the irony.

Wasted.

The <insert usual suspects here> think that irony is something to do with laundry.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2019, 12:53:20 pm »

Well I want to know if beating your wife is important?   :-\

Another (but not-so-nice) deflection. In fact, quite a telling response.
You really, really don't want to answer that question, do you, Alan?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2019, 05:17:40 pm »

Another (but not-so-nice) deflection. In fact, quite a telling response.
You really, really don't want to answer that question, do you, Alan?
Well, there was no intent to insult.  I was trying to make a point about the old saw in trials that you can;t ask a double question assuming the answer to the first is true.  The opposing counseling would object to the judge.  You assumed what Trump did was wrong than asked if I thought it was important.  That's like asking the witness when he stopped beating his wife assuming without proving he was beating her in the first place.  Maybe my analogy was too deep.  Sorry. 

degrub

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2019, 07:34:01 pm »

Hi Rob, It gets pretty complicated: As a person, I think Trump stinks. But I have to consider what he's done and against whom he's running. Trump made promises during the election and followed through on all of them, or at least tried. That fact is almost unique in political history. In spite of the left-wing propaganda put out by our captive "press," the results have been very favorable, especially for the middle class and "people of color." The "press" never will admit that, but statistics make clear it's true. The other complication is the array of people running against him in the coming election. They all seem obviously insane, except for "lunch-bucket" Joe Biden, who turns out to be nothing more than a befuddled liar. Seems a nice guy, but the crap he's done with son Hunter in Ukraine makes it clear he's also a crook.

So, whaddya do? I know what I'll do: I'll vote for the guy who stinks, but honestly tries to improve things. He's got way too big a mouth, and I think he's wrong about a lot of stuff, especially his tariffs, but. . . what the hell? I've gotta look at the alternatives. Seems to me most of life is like that. Wish it were simpler, but it just ain't.

He reminds me of a Teddy Roosevelt, but a very impolite version.
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