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Author Topic: Epson fadind Cyan  (Read 634 times)

Geraldo Garcia

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Epson fadind Cyan
« on: September 24, 2019, 09:51:53 am »

Hello friends, long time!

I am posting on behalf of some friends as I am helping them investigate an issue. I never owned a large format epson, tested one for a few weeks but returned it as I was satisfied with my HPs and Canons.
Several printers here in Brazil are reporting clients returning with faded prints, specifically cyan color, made using epson ultrachrome/HDR inks during 2015/2016. The papers are the usual high quality range from Canson and HahnemŁhle as well as some lower quality RC papers, so it does not seems paper related.

Did you, epson users, experience something like that? I am seeing a handful of reports from different sources, but all here in Brazil. Before you ask, they all use true epson inks (so they say, some I know fore sure).

Regards.

Some additional info:
On most cases the prints were framed without glass.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 10:48:39 am by Geraldo Garcia »
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mearussi

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2019, 10:00:06 am »

I've owned many Epsons using the older K3 inks and never had any cyan fading problems. Are your friends using genuine Epson OEM inks?
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2019, 10:35:32 am »

Some I know for sure, others I can only take their word.
But all are long time Epson users, some since 2005 and never had this issue before.
I am guessing a defective ink batch was sent to Brazil, but it is only a guess.
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dgberg

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2019, 12:59:29 pm »

7900, 9890 and 9900 over a 11 year period with no issues.
4000 prints on the 2010 9900 still going strong.

mearussi

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2019, 07:51:42 pm »

Some I know for sure, others I can only take their word.
But all are long time Epson users, some since 2005 and never had this issue before.
I am guessing a defective ink batch was sent to Brazil, but it is only a guess.

Fake ink labeled as Epson OEM?

In this day and age where so many products are watered down or mislabeled on purpose (olive oil, fish, honey, etc), why not? But Epson OEM cyan doesn't fade that fast.
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Terry_Kennedy

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2019, 06:11:31 pm »

Fake ink labeled as Epson OEM?

In this day and age where so many products are watered down or mislabeled on purpose (olive oil, fish, honey, etc), why not? But Epson OEM cyan doesn't fade that fast.

Agreed. If they still have the cartridge(s) that produced the fading prints, they could call Epson pro support and give them the info printed on the cartridge label. Epson pro support is pretty good - much better than the "too bad, so sad" you get from the consumer group.

Brazil is an odd case - from what I remember about import fees, a lot of products are manufactured in-country for the domestic market. I don't know if Epson is doing that with some inks, but that would also be worth a call to pro support.

However, I suspect those cartridges are long gone as this is on prints from 3+ years ago. If it happened to a client of mine, I'd apologize and offer to re-print the work for free (assuming that someone still has the digital file), just to keep the client happy.
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2019, 12:10:52 pm »

Since I wrote this message the issue is getting momentum and will probably hit the proverbial fan.

The inks are not only genuine but, in some cases, received directly from Epson or Epson's distributors. As the fading occurred on different papers from different brands the paper manufacturers are involved and interested on hearing from Epson.

I will keep you posted, but also would love to here if someone anywhere else in the world had a similar problem. As it stands, looks like only Brazil got the "bad inks batch" in 2016.

Regards.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 12:41:20 pm by Geraldo Garcia »
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2019, 12:39:58 pm »

Agreed. If they still have the cartridge(s) that produced the fading prints, they could call Epson pro support and give them the info printed on the cartridge label. Epson pro support is pretty good - much better than the "too bad, so sad" you get from the consumer group.

Brazil is an odd case - from what I remember about import fees, a lot of products are manufactured in-country for the domestic market. I don't know if Epson is doing that with some inks, but that would also be worth a call to pro support.

However, I suspect those cartridges are long gone as this is on prints from 3+ years ago. If it happened to a client of mine, I'd apologize and offer to re-print the work for free (assuming that someone still has the digital file), just to keep the client happy.

Terry, some companies assemble the mass market electronics (like TVs and cellphones) here in Brazil to avoid taxation, but it needs to be a mass market product to worth the cost. Large format printers, inks and things like that are imported and we pay a HEAVY tax.
Some of the printers involved work for the same niche that I do, printing for high level clients, world renowned artists that sell their work internationally. The prints were replaced without question, but the embarrassment for the artists and the damage to the reputation of the printers are the real problem.

I almost regret that I was not one of the printers affected by this issue (not really, but anyway...) because I keep ALL my used cartridges with dates (installed/removed) written on them. Yeah... ten years of printing business, four printers and I keep ALL the used cartridges.
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Terry_Kennedy

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2019, 02:10:10 pm »

Terry, some companies assemble the mass market electronics (like TVs and cellphones) here in Brazil to avoid taxation, but it needs to be a mass market product to worth the cost. Large format printers, inks and things like that are imported and we pay a HEAVY tax.

I've heard stories (in the early 1980's) about things like VAX 750 minicomputers being cut up here in the US so they would fit into luggage destined for Brazil, for one of the national TV networks.

Even inexpensive things like the Raspberry Pi educational computer (US $35 list price) are manufactured in Brazil due to the tax situation. However, I could see something happening like drums of bulk ink being shipped to Brazil, with tax being paid on the cost of the ink to manufacture, rather than on the retail value, and then being filled into cartridges for local sale. I have no idea if any manufacturer has ever done that, nor do I know whether that is permissible.

The unused/boxed cartridges I have for my P10K all say "Made in Indonesia"; the ones for my 4880 all say "Made in China". I have no unused/boxed cartridges for my P6K and the country of origin doesn't seem to be marked on the cartridges themselves. If you have the boxes for your used cartridges (or even any unused ones), it would be interesting to see what the country of manufacture is listed as - presumably Epson has multiple assembly locations, each serving a different geographic area.
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2019, 12:49:02 pm »

No, that is not how it goes anymore, but I won't bore you to death explaining the intricacies of the (absurd) Brazilian tax law, suffice to say the ink cartridges in question are imported, sealed packs, made on the usual places, China, Indonesia, Malaysia... don't know exactly as I am not an Epson user but that was checked by the users.

The issue is real and is moving forward on levels way above "pro support" with the paper manufacturers also demanding explanations, that is set.

What I am curious about and also think is worth as a heads-up warning is the geographical distribution of the problem. So far only Brazil was affected, no reports from the rest of south america or anywhere else.     
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2019, 01:08:59 pm »

Here is some feedback (and warning) for Epson users but also for users of ANY brand.

A brief recap of the issue: Some respectable fine art printers here in Brazil (and some mass market printers as well) are reporting clients returning with faded prints, specifically the cyan color. Several cases reported, various papers (from high end fine art papers to lower quality rc papers from different brands). What they have in common:
  • All printed around 2016
  • All using genuine Epson Ultrachrome/HDR inks, some received directly from Epson.
  • All in Brazil (so far no reports from anywhere else)
  • All exposed without glass.

The issue is real, paper manufacturers (like HahnemŁhle, Canson and others) are involved, testing the samples and demanding answers from Epson. It is a "local" issue but at the same time is huge, apparently a bad batch of inks was shipped (only) to Brazil in 2016. At this point it is only a conjecture but it is the only one that makes sense. We will have to wait the test results.

What I am here to share with you is the first official response from Epson, not support level but executive level. It is a public letter sent in response to dozens of printers that formalized a complain. We all knew it would go like that at first, but there is a specific phrase that I was not expecting to see.
(translation from Portuguese)
Quote
We are sorry for the delay in our return. We were evaluating other countries and sometimes the answers are late.

Given the fact presented by you, I inform you that we had no positive feedback on such similarity between other countries. We inquire with all EPSON subsidiaries in the Americas.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that actual print stability varies with media, printed image, display conditions, light intensity, humidity, and atmospheric conditions. Epson does not guarantee the longevity of prints. To maximize print life, display all prints on glass, laminate with UV protection, or store them properly. To complement this information, two items are the most harmful when the form is not protected: UV rays and ozone gas. Both directly affect the longevity of jobs.

In contrast, Canson has a longevity chart for their papers. This longevity claimed by them is the sole responsibility of Canson and users should turn to them for questions.

In conclusion, such a situation is likely to be due to a combination of factors as these are punctual situations never seen or reported in other countries. "

Kind regards.

That is it for the first round, I just never thought they would say "Epson does not guarantee the longevity" as an excuse.
We all KNOW Epson inks are good ad last longer, we are not bashing Epson printers or inks, but their response and their lack of concern is not reassuring.
The issue will go on on other fronts, and, as always, if anyone from anywhere else had a similar issue, please report.

Regards.
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Roscolo

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2019, 11:05:38 pm »

Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention. Pretty much every printers worst nightmare! My shop ditched Epson long ago for other reasons, but for those on the fence, until Epson gives a full explanation of why their ink is fading after only 2-3 years, seems prudent to avoid Epson printers entirely.
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kers

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2019, 06:18:39 am »

Quote
...Epson does not guarantee the longevity of prints...
This is indeed not the right way to answer for a company having such piece of the pie in art prints.
Maybe they made a mistake with the ink somewhere but think it is a one time local ( Brazil) problem.
Their media strategy might be to say nothing was wrong, and the problem will be forgotten as time passes.
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Abdo

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2019, 04:05:49 pm »

Geraldo,

Epson's answer is absolutely absurd.
I think it's a case of going to justice, a suggestion, you're good at it, write an article and send it to PentaPixel.
If Epson does not resolve the issue, it is a case of joint action bringing together the affected printers: Burning in Squares publishes these printers displaying to the world Epson's treatment. (em bons portuguÍs: tacar fogo nestas impressoras.)
I want to see some more printer buy a printer from them.

Abs ..

deanwork

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2019, 06:29:53 pm »

Scary. The very first thing they should have said is: please send us samples of the shifted prints so we can have them analyzed and then weíll be in touch. They should be collecting ALL samples from all effected customers and seeking them out. First thing to rule out is staining of the media itself.

Even the appearance of something like this can hurt printer sales so they better get to the bottom of it.

They are not going to do anything unless numerous customers get together and complain loudly IF many people are experiencing the same thing within the same exact time period something is up.

I would send them links to these posts and posts on other user groups and tell them you are just getting started making this public.

They are going to blame it on the media unless you PROVE  itís happening on all kinds of papers. I canít imagine it would be confined only to Brazil because the inks arenít made there, right? So this could end up being a big deal.

By the way, cyan pigment is the very last hue to fade, itís very stable. I would say the most likely problem with the image warming would be contamination of the inkjet receptor coating. I saw this red/yellow staining occur with Canson Rag Photo when doing bw with HP Vivera inks. The problem was environmental contamination when the prints were shown in public locations for months with no glass in front of them. It was bad. Many contaminants can cause it.  One neutral print turned sepia.  Same prints in dark storage and framed prints were fine.

Is the paper base itself yellowing? If not itís not at all likely to be environmental contamination, especially since cyan pigment is super durable.

But this doesnít sound like an isolated issue. Iím very surprised because they have had such a great reputation for
Ink consistency for two decades. Consistency is everything. And regardless what they say, they are paying Wilhelm a lot of cash to test and promote the stability of their media, which is a big marketing factor.

Really scary, and strange situation, especially if itís happening to rc media as well.

John


Geraldo,

Epson's answer is absolutely absurd.
I think it's a case of going to justice, a suggestion, you're good at it, write an article and send it to PentaPixel.
If Epson does not resolve the issue, it is a case of joint action bringing together the affected printers: Burning in Squares publishes these printers displaying to the world Epson's treatment. (em bons portuguÍs: tacar fogo nestas impressoras.)
I want to see some more printer buy a printer from them.

Abs ..
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Abdo

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Re: Epson fadind Cyan
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2019, 08:19:26 pm »

Brazil is a very complicated country. I believe Epson did some local shit to meet some specific demand and now the problem has arisen.
For some reason they may have done some local production ... you know ...
And now whoever did it will never want to take on the problem, will always say that it is the printer's fault.
But the printers who used Epson and have the problem, if I know them well, are serious people with a commitment to quality.
The shit is certainly from Epson, so the only answer I see after this one from Epson is to muldially spread it.
I had only one Epson printer .. and I will never have another .. it's real shit. ARRIVE!

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