Choosing paper without samples

[nzsky]

Hi all,
Purchased a P800, and two sample packs of Epsons signature worthy paper. I liked the hot press bright for my B&W images but decided not to use paper with OBA's (I will be framing, glazing, and selling the prints). I don't like the texture of the cold press, the texture throws too much shadow with 45 degree lighting. That left only the Cold Press Natural. I used the profiles from Epson NZ and was not happy with the muddiness and lack of shadow detail which is maybe to be expected with matt paper, but then discovered the profiles for HP bright & HP Natural soft proof exactly the same even with 'simulate paper colour' checked, which doesn't seem right. I re-edited based on print results with reasonable results but that seems to defeats the whole point of colour management. The other problem I had with the Epson paper was the face up side of the HP Bright printed terribly with a grainy look (dot gain?) and cost me hours of checking settings and trouble shooting only to find it printed fine on the bottom side, it is supposed to be double sided. So now I'm trying to choose alternatives in an area where no one stocks 'fine art' paper let alone sample packs so have been trying to narrow the choice based on reviews. I'm interested in Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta for general work, and the photo rag metallic for a particular set of B&W's. I would be grateful for advice on how the Hot Press Natural colour (warmth) and brightness compare with the HPR Baryta and metallic. A photo comparison would be really helpful to see. And would the two thick Hahnemuhle papers would print panoramas off a roll ok on a P800 (thinking head strikes etc)? Any suggestions for a cool/bright non oba paper? Sorry for the noob questions but that's what I am :-) By the way my successful prints look awesome, so happy with the P800.

[Alan Goldhammer]

It would help if you would clarify what type of paper surface most interests you.  The two Epson papers that you mention first are matte and some of the other ones are not.  You discuss Hahnemuhle, Epson, and HP papers; what other major brands are available to you in New Zealand?  Is there a mail order distributor in your region that does offer sample packs? 

I have done a lot of printing on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth which has a nice surface and you should not see some of the issues that you did with the Epson paper.  It is hard getting papers that offer a 'cool/bright' surface without some OBAs.  Ilford Gold Fiber Silk does have small amounts of OBAs but has held up pretty well in light fast testing (I have a couple of prints on this paper hanging in a business office that still look very good after 10 years).

[mearussi]

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic is a beautiful paper for certain images but has a completely different look from regular metallic glossy paper, it's more like their metallic canvas. It is also very thick and stiff so I'm not sure how it would transport through an amateur printer like the P800 (I had trouble printing it using my 24" Canon ipf6400 and had to set the head height and vacuum to max to keep the head from scratching it). For B&W images you might want to stick with regular metallic glossy RC paper even though they all have OBAs. 

 There is no blue/white smooth matte paper that I know of that doesn't contain OBAs, but if you can get Canson their smooth Rag Photographique is pretty much an industry standard and the profiles I've used from them are very good (at least for my printer).

https://www.canson-infinity.com/en/products/rag-photographique

For any other paper recommendations you would need to tell us what paper brands are available to you.
 

[nzsky]

I prefer matt for general / colour work so will probably get a smooth matt cotton (OBA free as I'm glazing with UV glass anyway). I guess they are all a similar tone. Not sure what I like for B&W as I haven't tried non matt paper OBA free paper and it's a bit hard to experiment with no local source. Sorry by HPR Baryta I meant Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, not Hewlett Packard. There are limited ranges (especially in 17" rolls) of Illford, Canson and Hahnemuhle in NZ, no sample packs I can find other than Epson, and nothing in the city I live so I will be ordering from overseas. I think I'll get a roll of either Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth or Canson Infinity Rag Photographique as suggested, and take a punt on the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic for my B&W set of images of nightscapes with water reflections. If anyone has tried it in a P800 I'd like to know how it went. Might cutting to length (in this case 850mm / 33.5" x 432mm / 17") and uncurling it and manually feed help avoid head strikes?

[BrianWJH]

Hi, here is a source that's across the ditch and there may be some interesting cotton and rag based papers you might be interested in.

Brian.

[elliot_n]

I prefer matt for general / colour work so will probably get a smooth matt cotton (OBA free as I'm glazing with UV glass anyway). I guess they are all a similar tone. Not sure what I like for B&W as I haven't tried non matt paper OBA free paper and it's a bit hard to experiment with no local source. Sorry by HPR Baryta I meant Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, not Hewlett Packard. There are limited ranges (especially in 17" rolls) of Illford, Canson and Hahnemuhle in NZ, no sample packs I can find other than Epson, and nothing in the city I live so I will be ordering from overseas. I think I'll get a roll of either Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth or Canson Infinity Rag Photographique as suggested, and take a punt on the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic for my B&W set of images of nightscapes with water reflections. If anyone has tried it in a P800 I'd like to know how it went. Might cutting to length (in this case 850mm / 33.5" x 432mm / 17") and uncurling it and manually feed help avoid head strikes?

It's not clear from your original post whether you've tried Epson Hot Press Natural. If you're looking for a very smooth matte paper, without OBAs, you're unlikely to find anything better.

[dgberg]

I prefer matt for general / colour work so will probably get a smooth matt cotton (OBA free as I'm glazing with UV glass anyway). I guess they are all a similar tone. Not sure what I like for B&W as I haven't tried non matt paper OBA free paper and it's a bit hard to experiment with no local source. Sorry by HPR Baryta I meant Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, not Hewlett Packard. There are limited ranges (especially in 17" rolls) of Illford, Canson and Hahnemuhle in NZ, no sample packs I can find other than Epson, and nothing in the city I live so I will be ordering from overseas. I think I'll get a roll of either Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth or Canson Infinity Rag Photographique as suggested, and take a punt on the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic for my B&W set of images of nightscapes with water reflections. If anyone has tried it in a P800 I'd like to know how it went. Might cutting to length (in this case 850mm / 33.5" x 432mm / 17") and uncurling it and manually feed help avoid head strikes?

Why would you cut it off the roll? You do have the roll attachment don't you?
It is one of the biggest reasons for buying that model printer. Yes I have both the printer and roll attachments and no head strikes.

[mearussi]

I prefer matt for general / colour work so will probably get a smooth matt cotton (OBA free as I'm glazing with UV glass anyway). I guess they are all a similar tone. Not sure what I like for B&W as I haven't tried non matt paper OBA free paper and it's a bit hard to experiment with no local source. Sorry by HPR Baryta I meant Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta, not Hewlett Packard. There are limited ranges (especially in 17" rolls) of Illford, Canson and Hahnemuhle in NZ, no sample packs I can find other than Epson, and nothing in the city I live so I will be ordering from overseas. I think I'll get a roll of either Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth or Canson Infinity Rag Photographique as suggested, and take a punt on the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic for my B&W set of images of nightscapes with water reflections. If anyone has tried it in a P800 I'd like to know how it went. Might cutting to length (in this case 850mm / 33.5" x 432mm / 17") and uncurling it and manually feed help avoid head strikes?

You can try, but it's almost as stiff as thin cardboard. Can you order from the U.S.? B&H has a economical sample roll that's good for experimenting, though you'd have to cut it to size:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1442084-REG/hahnem_hle_10643575_photo_rag_metallic_24.html

They also sell sample packs of most brands.

[nzsky]

Thanks Brian I was looking at B&H but didn't think of Auz, customs would be more user friendly.

Elliot - I really like the Hot Press Natural but was put off a bit by the sheets being supplied face down (I started printing on the top side with bad results), the fact that on the same Epson web page they say it is single sided in the spec and double sided in the description, and the fact there appears to be no difference in the profiles for hot press natural and hot press bright. I think they are the same paper except for oba's in the bright but the profiles should reflect that? Also I was hoping one of the other papers might be slightly cooler toned, the Epson site only quotes ISO 'brightness' of 0.88, the 'whiteness' values are 94,0 for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth and 91,33 for the Canson Infinity Rag Photo Rag Photographique but the numbers don't mean much to me if I can't see the paper.

dgberg - re cutting off the roll I was talking only about the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic. I'm assuming being so stiff it might come off the roll quite curled and thought  flattening it might help avoid the scratching problems Mearussi had (above). And he has vacuum feed, I don't, if it won't make any difference please advise. Using a roll feed will be new to me.

Mearussi - yes I did spot the sample roll on B&H thanks - its about 1/3rd of the price per m2 as A2 sheets here!

[mearussi]

I forgot you don't have vacuum. The paper surface is fairly fragile so I don't know whether the pinwheel advance mechanism will mar the surface.

[unesco]

Hi nzsky,

I am heavy user of P800 with roll feeder as well as old 3880 and use all four incarnations of Epson Press papers. These are one of the best papers I have ever used and my favorite ones (HPB and HPN). The only I can rate a bit higher is Canson Rag Photographique, which is whiter (less warm) than HPN and a bit better tonality (both are top level in that area). But more expensive. HPx have the deepest possible blacks as for mat fine art papers on the market.

As for the profiles, the ones attached to the driver are of medium quality. Yo can go to US web page of Epson and download dedicated ICCs, ...mk_v2 ones (read carefully recommendations for print settings).

I have never seen any grainy or dot gain like effects on this paper. Maybe you had a faulty series. Both sides are printable due to paper coating process application, the "official" one is a bit smoother than the reverse one.

As for the roll holder usage, it is ok for usual photo papers like luster or so. For thick papers, barytas, etc, it usually causes head strikes in most cases. The solution is to use "platten gap" option as "wide". It causes a bit worse print quality (not much) due to higher distance from the print head to paper, and can be used only for uni-directional printing, but assures almost no head strikes.

You are lucky to live in NZ, since you can buy Hot Press papers in half-price (from US shops) compared to Europe ;-). I pay for it almost the same price as for very expensive Canson Rag Photographique. I know that Frodo from this forum uses Press papers on rolls for his P600 so you can exchange your experience from Kiwis' perspective :-).

Good luck!

[BrianWJH]

You are lucky to live in NZ, since you can buy Hot Press papers in half-price (from US shops) compared to Europe ;-).

Except Epson has an embargo on all their products selling out of the US, B&H and other resellers are forbidden to export Epson products to other countries.

Brian.

[enduser]

Just use "Ship it to" or similar US outfits that buy for you and re-ship to wherever. We've done this in Australia and it worked well.

[BrianWJH]

Yes that's an option, however current exchange rates, freight costs and import taxes can make it more expensive than buying local.

Brian.