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Author Topic: Softproofing - Ideas?  (Read 572 times)

rabanito

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Softproofing - Ideas?
« on: August 29, 2019, 05:40:48 pm »

When softproofing I get initially a subdued bluish cast (among other things) for the paper I use
I correct this with the Tone Curve (blue channel).
The results are better but never identical with the original
There are lots of sliders to try in the D-Panel and usually I try them too until the results are satisfactory and then print.

But there is no method in this method. Just tweaking around.

Does anybody have something more "deliberate" for making corrections when softproofing?
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JeanMichel

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2019, 07:26:25 pm »

Once you have a set of tweaks that work, you can create a preset for the softproof. The paper I use for quick prints has a bluish cast, for that one a simple warming of the colour temperature works fine. For final prints I soft-proof and print a test strip, evaluate, adjust, repeat; there really is no other option for that.
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digitaldog

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2019, 07:44:01 pm »

The blue could be due to OBAs in the paper and how the profile was built to (deal/not deal) with this. I assume you have the simulate paper white option on and see this?
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Andrew Rodney
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rabanito

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2019, 05:54:43 am »

Actually I expect differences that have to be corrected. In this case it is something I interpret as bluish, this is my printer (epson 2880) and my paper (and my eyes).
I'm attaching an example with a gray card, which I created in PS (50% Gray) and one with a White Card
On the left is the original, on the right is the proof for Hahnemühle Fine Print Baryta as I see it in LR
Other papers I use produce similar results (not identical).
Following the method proposed by JeanMichel as a first step I could tweak say, color temperature (or else) and when saatisfied create a preset for the corresponding SProof
I'll try that.
But I have the impression that color pictures (not just a grey card) are more forgiving than monochrome (toned) images. I mean, I have more trouble matching the right sepia or selenium or whatever
Maybe this is just psychological, a perception-issue?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 06:03:00 am by rabanito »
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rabanito

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2019, 06:06:17 am »

I assume you have the simulate paper white option on and see this?
Yes, I always do
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2019, 08:32:50 am »

The blue could be due to OBAs in the paper and how the profile was built to (deal/not deal) with this. I assume you have the simulate paper white option on and see this?
Andrew is correct, this is the usual problem.  I ran into this big time when I was fooling around with different settings to make profiles with ArgyllCMS.  You can chose the illuminant and depending on the choice, you would get a marked blue cast with the profile
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rabanito

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2019, 09:53:34 am »

Thank you for the responses.
And your explanation of the influence of one colour over the other is very good, Peter.

Actually my environment when soft proofing is dark and I expand the LR window to a maximum to minimize such effects.
Of course, there are always some thingies around  :(

But looking at the samples I used as an example, they ARE different.
The point is making them match. If the proof were warmer, I'd try to cool it down and viceversa.

In theory I'd expect both parts, the original (50% gray) and the proof, to look exactly the same
In the samples the left side RGB is (128,128,128) and the right side (127,126,132).
A match would bring the right side to (128,128,128).
As a starting point, of course

Another thing I noticed is that changing the temperature values (WB) on the white card changes nothing. Even the Histogram stays put.
Would that mean that these sliders have more influence on some (exposure) values than on others?

Please don't forget that I am a newbie in digital matters. Excuse me if I state the obvious
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nirpat89

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2019, 10:18:47 am »

Actually I expect differences that have to be corrected. In this case it is something I interpret as bluish, this is my printer (epson 2880) and my paper (and my eyes).
I'm attaching an example with a gray card, which I created in PS (50% Gray) and one with a White Card
On the left is the original, on the right is the proof for Hahnemühle Fine Print Baryta as I see it in LR
Other papers I use produce similar results (not identical).
Following the method proposed by JeanMichel as a first step I could tweak say, color temperature (or else) and when saatisfied create a preset for the corresponding SProof
I'll try that.
But I have the impression that color pictures (not just a grey card) are more forgiving than monochrome (toned) images. I mean, I have more trouble matching the right sepia or selenium or whatever
Maybe this is just psychological, a perception-issue?

Do your actual prints of these match the soft-proof?  Actually in case of the the white card, that would be the bare paper.  With OBAs, the paper would look cool particularly when there is more UV in the ambient.  I am not sure the paper you are using has OBAs in it or how much.  If the paper is indeed so blue, fixing it in LR would not do anything as there is no printing there.  The middle gray looks awfully blueish as well, so perhaps the profile itself may be the culprit here. 

Do you make your own profile?  If so try optimizing it around neutrals.  I do a lot of toned images as well.  Lately I have taken to first optimizing the general starting profile around neutrals and then further tweaking of that neutral profile with the tone in question using ColorMunki Photo (it has its own problems.)  The result is a much better match. 

:Niranjan.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 10:24:09 am by nirpat89 »
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rabanito

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2019, 11:22:26 am »

Do your actual prints of these match the soft-proof?  Actually in case of the the white card, that would be the bare paper.  With OBAs, the paper would look cool particularly when there is more UV in the ambient.  I am not sure the paper you are using has OBAs in it or how much.  If the paper is indeed so blue, fixing it in LR would not do anything as there is no printing there.  The middle gray looks awfully blueish as well, so perhaps the profile itself may be the culprit here. 

Do you make your own profile?  If so try optimizing it around neutrals.  I do a lot of toned images as well.  Lately I have taken to first optimizing the general starting profile around neutrals and then further tweaking of that neutral profile with the tone in question using ColorMunki Photo (it has its own problems.)  The result is a much better match. 

:Niranjan.



Thanks :Niranjan

The prints match the soft proof pretty well. Now and then I have to make some tests and tweaks and I'm also aware that I should not expect the print to match perfectly what I'm seeing in the monitor.
The issue is to match the original, that's what I'd like, to the proof, that's what will (perhaps) appear on the paper. The stage before printing
I used a commercial profile (Hahnemühle Fine Print Baryta) so that anyone can repeat the examples on his PC.
Changing the profiles (for other papers) gives different results. Even such without any perceptible cast (OBA?).

No I don't make my own profiles. I tried once, with frustrating results  :(
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nirpat89

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 01:32:43 pm »



Thanks :Niranjan

The prints match the soft proof pretty well. Now and then I have to make some tests and tweaks and I'm also aware that I should not expect the print to match perfectly what I'm seeing in the monitor.
The issue is to match the original, that's what I'd like, to the proof, that's what will (perhaps) appear on the paper. The stage before printing
I used a commercial profile (Hahnemühle Fine Print Baryta) so that anyone can repeat the examples on his PC.
Changing the profiles (for other papers) gives different results. Even such without any perceptible cast (OBA?).

No I don't make my own profiles. I tried once, with frustrating results  :(

Yeah, doing your own profiles can be more trouble than it is worth unless you are willing to dedicate the time and effort to really do a good job.  I am not close to being there yet.

Regarding color vs. monochrome, I think because the profiles are generally created with the widest set of colors within the gamut, the resulting color prints look acceptable as long as the images also themselves have a good range of colors.  Our eyes kind of average out the errors.  Every once in while though I come across an image and see it print not as well, particularly when the image has one or two dominant colors - like a big blue sky or a patch of grass.  They may look a little off to the eye if not reproduced correctly since we know what to expect there.  In such cases I resort to adding a Curves layer to compensate before printing.  Same thing happens for toned monochromes.  Generic canned profiles are not necessarily optimized for that specific part of the gamut, hence there is a possibility to get the print slightly warmer or cooler.  Sometimes, there are patches of middle gray where tone reverts in which case a global adjustment becomes more difficult.  The paper color plays role too - if the image is sepia i.e. warm tone but the paper base is bluish then the print highlights will get cooler as there is sparse ink there to compensate.  And there is a kind of split tone regardless of how good the profile is.  For that reason I strictly use warm tones papers without any OBAs.

(My experience is completely based on Photoshop and while I use soft-proofing to get a general idea, I am not well-versed in finding nuance of differences.  For that I have to print and look - old habit with printing from color slides in the darkroom)

Have a great weekend!

:Niranjan.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 01:37:44 pm by nirpat89 »
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rabanito

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2019, 04:28:08 pm »

Thank you Niranjan.
Very interesting. Good food for thought.  :)
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nirpat89

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2019, 04:55:15 pm »


In theory I'd expect both parts, the original (50% gray) and the proof, to look exactly the same
In the samples the left side RGB is (128,128,128) and the right side (127,126,132).
A match would bring the right side to (128,128,128).
As a starting point, of course


Hi, Rabanito:

I was playing with LR (not my normal way of editing so it is relatively new to me) to see what happens with various printer profiles in the soft-proof mode.  I am wondering about your (127,126,132) value on the soft-proof.  Is it the expected value on the print?  Can you please tell me how you measured this number?

Thanks.

:Niranjan
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 05:08:22 pm by nirpat89 »
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rabanito

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 08:42:51 am »

Hi, Rabanito:

I was playing with LR (not my normal way of editing so it is relatively new to me) to see what happens with various printer profiles in the soft-proof mode.  I am wondering about your (127,126,132) value on the soft-proof.  Is it the expected value on the print?  Can you please tell me how you measured this number?

Thanks.

:Niranjan

Hi Niranjan
Sorry for the delay, I've been away


I put the original and the proof preview side by side in LR
Then I copied the screen via PrintScreen (from my PC)
I pasted that in Photoshop and mesasured the values via "Info"
I checkedthe values of the original (128,128,128), that I'd created in PS, just to make sure nothing had been changed
The values of the proof-side give  (127,126,132)

I'd like the values in the proof side to match the original but this should be impossible in a real photo, so I'm told, so one should approximate as good as it goes.
What is really printed is another matter, I believe. Soft proofing should be just a good approximation


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nirpat89

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Re: Softproofing - Ideas?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2019, 10:26:41 am »

Hi Niranjan
Sorry for the delay, I've been away


I put the original and the proof preview side by side in LR
Then I copied the screen via PrintScreen (from my PC)
I pasted that in Photoshop and mesasured the values via "Info"
I checkedthe values of the original (128,128,128), that I'd created in PS, just to make sure nothing had been changed
The values of the proof-side give  (127,126,132)

I'd like the values in the proof side to match the original but this should be impossible in a real photo, so I'm told, so one should approximate as good as it goes.
What is really printed is another matter, I believe. Soft proofing should be just a good approximation

That's quite alright - not like I had a important deadline to meet... :)

Thanks for the details on my inquiry.  I was kind of hoping there was some sort of backdoor in Lr that I didn't know about.  I guess not.  I have no clue why Ps or Lr does not have an ability to read the numbers straight on the soft-proof - I am sure the math is all there behind the scenes.   You already know this, but what you can read in LR on the soft-proof image with a cursor are the values that would be obtained after Convert to Profile is performed on the image.  You can't do that in Ps, as far as I know.  You would have to physically do the conversion. 


:Niranjan.

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