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Author Topic: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science  (Read 96380 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #360 on: August 18, 2019, 09:37:52 pm »

Deciding where to spend limited resources, whether on cancer research or climate control and in what proportion, is more a function of the human heart.  How come you haven't answer this question that I posed a number of times.  You keep trying to prove global warming.  OK.  Let's say you're right. How about answering my question.

Alan,

We still have 3 guys in this thread who are denying the theory that man is responsible for climate change, they are my top priority. ;) There is a lot of work because they are also denying science and statistics... but we can't give up. ;)

Now, how to allocate resources is a complex topic that involves both public and private sector decisions as you know as well as I do.

There is no simple cursor that would enable citizens to decide to move funds from one area to another.

Beyond that:
1. Public sector: It is influenced by voters... to some extend. The connection between the voters will and the potical decisions of their representatives can be pretty slim though. Let's just look at the very strong opposition of the public in Japan against nuclear and how the Japanese government completely ignored it and went straight to trying to restart nuclear reactors as Fukushima was still smoking.

The biggest spending that is worthless, except for weapon dealers, is defense. This adds very little value to the progress of human kind. A lot less than it used to at least. Defense budgets more or less derive from global instability, so the best way to reduce them is to make the world more stable.

It's interesting to notice that the level of military spending in Russia was divided by 10 from the cold war years to today... while it increased by 25% in the US during the same period... why? https://ourworldindata.org/military-spending

So how much is spent by governments, in particular the US, on cancer research is mostly impacted by how much they are spending on defense. a lot more than what they are spending on the environment. Why not talk to your representatives on this first?

2. Private sector: this is driven by the prospect of financial gains. I believe that cancer and heart diseases being the major killers that they are are already the focus on huge investements from the private sector. Not sure how to increase them further. There is on the other hand great potential to refocus a lot of R&D energy from futile spendings (a new TV every 7-8 years isn't needed at all, 8K isn't needed at all,...) to useful ones that will reduce the environmental footprint of people while generating business opportunities for entrepreneurs. This is happening and is correlated to the perception of citizens about the need to become more eco minded. Works great in many countries and parts of the US.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 09:46:50 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #361 on: August 18, 2019, 09:37:56 pm »

I believe that's what's called a "false dichotomy".  One does not necessarily preclude the other.  Just like going to the moon didn't eliminate any chance of fixing, I dunno, let's say "acid rain".  Or smog.  Or the ozone hole in Antarctica.

Some here offer the opinion: "Why should I care?  I'll be dead before the supposed effects take place".

Others think: Oops! We've really made a big mistake here.  We should do everything we can to fix it, otherwise, everyone is going to suffer extreme pain in the foreseeable future.

What's the worst that can happen?  That we preserved an Earth with clean air, clear water and a relatively known set of climate conditions?  All for nothing?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #362 on: August 18, 2019, 09:41:09 pm »

Nobody questions that. But climate science is not really science when it comes to predictions. It relies on models and models are notoriously bad substitute for the real world.

No they are not.

They are not perfect substitute for the real world, but they are nowhere need "notoriously bad".

I would be interested in where you got this impression from?

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #363 on: August 18, 2019, 09:51:20 pm »

Alan,

We still have 3 guys in this thread who are denying the theory that man is responsible for climate change, they are my top priority. ;) There is a lot of work because they are also denying science and statistics... but we can't give up. ;)

Now, how to allocate resources is a complex topic that involves both public and private sector decisions as you know as well as I do.

There is no simple cursor that would enable citizens to decide to move funds from one area to another.

Beyond that:
1. Public sector: It is influenced by voters... to some extend. The connection between the voters will and the potical decisions of their representatives can be pretty slim though. Let's just look at the very strong opposition of the public in Japan against nuclear and how the Japanese government completely ignored it and went straight to trying to restart nuclear reactors as Fukushima was still smoking.

The biggest spending that is worthless, except for weapon dealers, is defense. This adds very little value to the progress of human kind. A lot less than it used to at least. Defense budgets more or less derive from global instability, so the best way to reduce them is to make the world more stable. Removing Trump from office would be a great first step as he is the single largest factor or instability on the planet. Not his administration, himself. The war on terror would not have had to be started had the US not attacked Irak on blatently false information. So being smart geopolitically is another way to reduce defense spendings... of course some conspiracy theorists will say that the war on Irak was designed to generate military spendinds, and I am close to agreement with them. But most citizens in the US don't agree with this, so increasing the democratic control of those in power needs to be done. I am not advocating to remove armies, only to reduce spendings to reasonnable levels.

It's interesting to notice that the level of military spending in Russia was divided by 10 from the cold war years to today... while it increase by 25% in the US during the same period... why? https://ourworldindata.org/military-spending

So how much is spent by governments, in particular the US, on cancer research is mostly impacted by how much they are spending on defense. a lot more than what they are spending on the environment. Why not talk to your representatives on this first?

2. Private sector: this is driven by the prospect of financial gains. I believe that cancer and heart diseases being the major killers that they are are already the focus on huge investements from the private sector. Not sure how to increase them further. There is on the other hand great potential to refocus a lot of R&D energy from futile spendings (a new TV every 7-8 years isn't needed at all, 8K isn't needed at all,...) to useful ones that will reduce the environmental footprint of people while generating business opportunities for entrepreneurs. This is happening and is correlated to the perception of citizens about the need to become more eco minded. Works great in many countries and parts of the US.

Cheers,
Bernard



Bernard, This is the second or third thread on this subject and we're up to 18 pages in this thread and you still haven;t convinced those three.  Time to give up.  Let's move the discussion along.  You list some very important considerations as to how to decide to allocate resources.  It's pretty complicated.  And you didn't actually come up with any conclusions other than, let's take some from here and maybe from there and put it there and maybe over there too.  So that's the point.  It's complicated.  You have to sit down and decide who's going to be short changed?  What programs have to take a hit?  Those are not only human questions, but economic and political.  Someone has to decide which money, how much and where it is to go.  How would you decide?  How much should go into each program? 

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #364 on: August 18, 2019, 09:52:54 pm »

I believe that's what's called a "false dichotomy".  One does not necessarily preclude the other.  Just like going to the moon didn't eliminate any chance of fixing, I dunno, let's say "acid rain".  Or smog.  Or the ozone hole in Antarctica.

Some here offer the opinion: "Why should I care?  I'll be dead before the supposed effects take place".

Others think: Oops! We've really made a big mistake here.  We should do everything we can to fix it, otherwise, everyone is going to suffer extreme pain in the foreseeable future.

What's the worst that can happen?  That we preserved an Earth with clean air, clear water and a relatively known set of climate conditions?  All for nothing?
You don't have to do one or the other.  I did ask in what proportions should each be done?  See my last post for my fuller point.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #365 on: August 18, 2019, 09:58:19 pm »

... because they are also denying science and statistics...

That is just not true. Nobody denies science and statistics. We "deny" how it is (mis)used for political gain. Neither "science" nor statistics can be decision makers.

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... The biggest spending that is worthless, except for weapon dealers, is defense. This adds very little value to the progress of human kind...

How untrue. Without that, Europe would be Nazi and half of the world communist. Getting rid of both is the progress of the mankind.


Quote
... Removing Trump from office would be a great first step as he is the single largest factor or instability on the planet...

That is just not serious, though I believe you seriously believe that.

Quote
... Another great example is the war on terror that would not have had to be started had the US not attacked Irak on blatently false information...

Remember that the first attempt at bombing the World Trade Center was in 1993, after the first Iraq war, which certainly wasn't started on false information, but Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Besides, radical Islamism is not coming from Iraq even after the second war.

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #366 on: August 18, 2019, 10:01:10 pm »

No they are not.

They are not perfect substitute for the real world, but they are nowhere need "notoriously bad".

I would be interested in where you got this impression from?

Cheers,
Bernard


I hate to go back a step, but I just want to mention that hurricane models are based on the "real world" happening right now that you could then apply to what actually happened.  Yet, even with years of forecasting real events, the four best models which take hours to run, have accuracies from 40%-60%.  And the models each come up with different results, so which is right?   Yet, we want to believe that a model or models predicting climate change out to 50-100 years from now are accurate based on one variable - CO2.
https://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/models.asp

BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #367 on: August 18, 2019, 11:05:55 pm »

That is just not true. Nobody denies science and statistics. We "deny" how it is (mis)used for political gain. Neither "science" nor statistics can be decision makers.

How untrue. Without that, Europe would be Nazi and half of the world communist. Getting rid of both is the progress of the mankind.


That is just not serious, though I believe you seriously believe that.

Remember that the first attempt at bombing the World Trade Center was in 1993, after the first Iraq war, which certainly wasn't started on false information, but Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Besides, radical Islamism is not coming from Iraq even after the second war.

Slobodan,

I won't go in that direction as it would take the thread too far off track.

The exec summary is simply that reducing defense budget would be a way to invest in environment related topics. You disagree, fine.

Cheers,
Bernard

LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #368 on: August 19, 2019, 12:19:51 am »

I hate to go back a step, but I just want to mention that hurricane models are based on the "real world" happening right now that you could then apply to what actually happened.  Yet, even with years of forecasting real events, the four best models which take hours to run, have accuracies from 40%-60%.  And the models each come up with different results, so which is right?   Yet, we want to believe that a model or models predicting climate change out to 50-100 years from now are accurate based on one variable - CO2.
https://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/models.asp

Actually, weather calculations and forecasts are based on the past weather scenarios. In some aspects adjusted with the latest measurements, but the problem is that the old models are different from the latest weather conditions and often fool the forecast calculations.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #369 on: August 19, 2019, 12:28:13 am »

Actually, weather calculations and forecasts are based on the past weather scenarios. In some aspects adjusted with the latest measurements, but the problem is that the old models are different from the latest weather conditions and often fool the forecast calculations.
Exactly my point. Climate change algorithms have no past performance to input into the algorithms. That makes it so much more difficult to get accurate models.

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #370 on: August 19, 2019, 02:49:38 am »

Nobody questions that. But climate science is not really science when it comes to predictions. It relies on models and models are notoriously bad substitute for the real world.

Slobo - I'm curious -what do you imagine a "model" to be?
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #371 on: August 19, 2019, 07:24:17 am »

No - the basic scientific situation is clear. There is no value in discussing it here, since neither you nor I have the knowledge or expertise to do so. It is however interesting to discuss what is the reason that deniers are given so much coverage.

No it is not. It is far from clear. There are numerous scientific papers that have been published for and against. Weather prediction and long time climate change prediction is highly uncertain. I actually understand a bit about it, because as a geologist I am used to look at climate data from Precambrian to recent times. Thus, if it is still highly uncertain, it needs to be discussed and given coverage to both sides.

Ray

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #372 on: August 19, 2019, 07:35:48 am »

The uncertainty is diminishing as the Scientific understanding improves, and things may turn out to be a little worse than previously thought ...

Well, recent research hints at an answer as Science gains a better understanding. It's likely to have a slight negative effect, resulting in less cooling.


In complex systems involving significant time scales there are often hints about various causes, and various degrees of 'likelihood', but usually little certainty.​

I prefer to base my opinions on sound evidence which can be demonstrated with repeatable experiments, such as the evidence that increased levels of CO2 increase the growth of most plants.​

As science progresses and gets a better understanding, what was previously accepted as being true is often found to be false. A couple of recent examples, which involve significant complexity, is the human genome, and the rate of expansion of the universe.​

When the human genome was eventually sequenced, only the protein-coding genes, representing 1 to 2 % of the entire genome, were considered to be relevant. The other 98%, or more, was viewed as 'junk DNA', a left-over from our distant evolutionary past which no longer served a purpose.​

This view is now considered to be false. Likewise, the expansion of the universe was considered to be slowing down, a view endorsed by the late Stephen Hawking, until more recent observations from the Hubble telescope revealed that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating.​

It wouldn't surprise me if the claimed main cause of the current warming, anthropogenic emissions of CO2, will eventually be found to be false. I have an open mind, unlike some people who unwittingly accept a fabricated consensus designed to create alarm.

I did some more internet searching for recent studies on this great uncertainty about the effects of water vapour and clouds, and can find no resolution which you suggest is occurring with recent research.

Here are some very recent studies:​
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41475​  (Sancho-Lorenzo et al (2019)

"Clouds affect the global energy balance as they reflect a large fraction of the Sun’s incoming radiation and at the same time absorb and emit longwave radiation. Despite their relevance, large uncertainties remain with respect to the response and feedbacks of the clouds to anthropogenic forcing. Consequently they are considered as one of the main sources of uncertainty for climate sensitivity and future climate scenarios."​

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2018JD030150​   (Hentgen et al (2019)

"Although crucial for the Earth's climate, clouds are poorly represented in current climate models, which operate at too coarse grid resolutions and rely on convection parameterizations."

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40641-019-00126-x   (Nuijens and Siebesma (2019)

"Clouds in nature are more complex than the idealized cloud types that have informed our understanding of the cloud feedback. Remaining major uncertainties are the coupling of clouds to large-scale circulations and to the ocean, and mesoscale aggregation of clouds."

https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/JCLI-D-18-0417.1  (Ying and Thompson (2019)

".. there is still considerable uncertainty about the underlying mechanisms, whereby CRE (Cloud Radiative Effects) govern the jet response to climate change."

I think the very vague term, 'climate change denier', needs redefining as follows:

A 'climate change denier' is not one who denies that climate is changing, or one who denies that human activity has at least some effect on climate, but one who denies that there is great uncertainty about the significance of the proposed causes of the current change in climate, which is usually focused on CO2 emissions.

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RSL

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #373 on: August 19, 2019, 08:01:35 am »

It's a bloody shame the oxymoron, "political science" already has been taken. It should be used to describe politicians pretending to be scientists. In other words, "climate scientists."
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Ray

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #374 on: August 19, 2019, 08:19:24 am »

Here's some interesting recent research from the Chinese, on the possibility of future cooling in the near future, which might catch us unprepared. (But don't read it if you are a confirmed 'alarmist' entrenched in your views. You don't want to read alternative views on anything, do you!)  ;D

https://principia-scientific.org/chinese-scientists-warn-of-imminent-global-cooling/

"Climate change is real, the climate changes — this fact is never disputed. A new study, led by prominent Chinese scientists, has found that winters in northern China have been warming for the past 6,000 years –unrelated to human activity– but now the prospect of a sudden and severe bout of global cooling is on the horizon and poses a serious danger."

"The paper, which has been accepted for publication by the online Journal of Geophysical Research, found that winds from Arctic Siberia have been growing weaker for thousands of years, the conifer tree line has been retreating north, and there has been a steady rise in biodiversity in a general warming trend that continues today. And that’s another thing AGW alarmists fail to address — increasing temperatures ALWAYS result in increased biodiversity. Life loves warmth, and, furthermore, it loves carbon."

"Wu and her colleagues are worried that, as societies become further indoctrinated by the concept of global warming, people will develop a misplaced confidence in our ability to control the climate — which we cannot. Nature, they warned, will likely trick us and catch us totally unprepared — potentially causing chaos, panic, famine and even wars."
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #375 on: August 19, 2019, 08:24:11 am »

Here's some interesting recent research from the Chinese, on the possibility of future cooling in the near future, which might catch us unprepared. (But don't read it if you are a confirmed 'alarmist' entrenched in your views. You don't want to read alternative views on anything, do you!)  ;D

https://principia-scientific.org/chinese-scientists-warn-of-imminent-global-cooling/

"Climate change is real, the climate changes — this fact is never disputed. A new study, led by prominent Chinese scientists, has found that winters in northern China have been warming for the past 6,000 years –unrelated to human activity– but now the prospect of a sudden and severe bout of global cooling is on the horizon and poses a serious danger."

"The paper, which has been accepted for publication by the online Journal of Geophysical Research, found that winds from Arctic Siberia have been growing weaker for thousands of years, the conifer tree line has been retreating north, and there has been a steady rise in biodiversity in a general warming trend that continues today. And that’s another thing AGW alarmists fail to address — increasing temperatures ALWAYS result in increased biodiversity. Life loves warmth, and, furthermore, it loves carbon."

"Wu and her colleagues are worried that, as societies become further indoctrinated by the concept of global warming, people will develop a misplaced confidence in our ability to control the climate — which we cannot. Nature, they warned, will likely trick us and catch us totally unprepared — potentially causing chaos, panic, famine and even wars."

That's what I concluded if you read my previous posts. And I'm not even Chinese.

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #376 on: August 19, 2019, 08:43:57 am »

It's a bloody shame the oxymoron, "political science" already has been taken. It should be used to describe politicians pretending to be scientists. In other words, "climate scientists."

Can you support this claim by documenting climate scientists without scientific credentials?

Or are you just spouting hot air?
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RSL

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #377 on: August 19, 2019, 08:59:37 am »

Can you support this claim by documenting climate scientists without scientific credentials?


Duh, Jeremy. What makes you think "scientific credentials" have anything to do with it? Most politicians have plenty of credentials. "Climate scientists" are politicians with science credentials.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #378 on: August 19, 2019, 09:05:40 am »


1. Public sector: It is influenced by voters... to some extend. The connection between the voters will and the potical decisions of their representatives can be pretty slim though. Let's just look at the very strong opposition of the public in Japan against nuclear and how the Japanese government completely ignored it and went straight to trying to restart nuclear reactors as Fukushima was still smoking.

The biggest spending that is worthless, except for weapon dealers, is defense. This adds very little value to the progress of human kind. A lot less than it used to at least. Defense budgets more or less derive from global instability, so the best way to reduce them is to make the world more stable.

It's interesting to notice that the level of military spending in Russia was divided by 10 from the cold war years to today... while it increased by 25% in the US during the same period... why? https://ourworldindata.org/military-spending

So how much is spent by governments, in particular the US, on cancer research is mostly impacted by how much they are spending on defense. a lot more than what they are spending on the environment. Why not talk to your representatives on this first?
There is a huge lobby for biomedical research in the US and the funding for the National Institutes of Health always seems to come out OK on a yearly basis.  There may be disagreements about how that money is being spent.  There was an article in the paper today that research on Sickle Cell Disease which affects 100K African Americans get very little funding relative to other diseases of a similar patient size that mainly affect white Americans (they used Cystic Fibrosis as the example).  Cancer research is still the largest funded area.

Quote
2. Private sector: this is driven by the prospect of financial gains. I believe that cancer and heart diseases being the major killers that they are are already the focus on huge investements from the private sector. Not sure how to increase them further.

Cheers,
Bernard
Very little private sector money is being spent on heart disease research.  We already have good cholesterol and blood pressure medications and anything new will be too incremental.  A lot of industry R&D is focused on cancer research.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 09:12:13 am by Alan Goldhammer »
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Ray

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #379 on: August 19, 2019, 09:18:39 am »

That's what I concluded if you read my previous posts. And I'm not even Chinese.

Yes, I know, Alan. I was merely providing a link to some scientific research which expressed a similar view. The initial claim in the first post of this thread is that any skepticism about CO2-caused climate change, and any skepticism that it will most likely have disastrous consequences, is not scientifically justified because of an overwhelming consensus of certainty on the issue.
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