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Author Topic: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science  (Read 50437 times)

Ivo_B

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2019, 03:41:26 am »

Lula should focus on photography. Based on the comments, the inmates find that the majority doesn’t have a clue about photography, so that’s easy. We can collectively ignore each other’s work.
More difficult with scientific topics, who knows, maybe we have a Trojan horse among us. A climate activist disguised as ignorant photographer.

 ::) ??? ::)

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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 03:57:33 am »



This article is absolutely essential.

I would appreciate if comments could focus on the role of media on the widespread misconceptions about global warming.

Cheers,
Bernard
[/quote]

Depending on the chosen media and the flavour of the day, misconceptions are abundant and go in every direction. There are scientific and reputable works done by both "pros" and "contrarians", and both should be given "airtime". It happens with all sorts of subjects. For example, the current trend in Portugal is to chastise hydrocarbons, to the point that several companies who had won exploration bids have left the country - the very least a country that propelled the age of discoveries 500 years ago should do is to investigate and learn about the existing resources. But the politics choose the easy way out. Hydrocarbons are bad and pollute the environment, but everybody uses them. Go figure...

The other trend in electric cars, and Portugal has a good amount of lithium resources to mine. But no, the "greens" are against it. Mines spoil the environment. However, they do not care if the lithium is mined in West Africa under appalling conditions for child labour. It's the NYMBY tactics.

Anyway, back to the topic - the above just demonstrates that media choose whatever sells the most, regardless of scientific work. As for climate change, it's more of the same - as a geologist, I know that climate has been changing in the last 4.5 billion years, nothing new. I also know that there are reputable scientists that have called the attention to the fact that it is not yet proven that Man has accelerated climate change (before it was called global warming...), so they should be given air time.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 04:09:59 am »

I also know that there are reputable scientists that have called the attention to the fact that it is not yet proven that Man has accelerated climate change (before it was called global warming...), so they should be given air time.

Yes, they should be given air time... and they are being given air time... way too much it seems.

And for what it's worth, the wording climate change came after global warming, as an attempt to lower its negative perception.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 04:40:03 am »

Thanks for the article, Bernard.

I'll begin by quoting the first sentence in this article.

"Since the early 2000s there has been little disagreement among scientific experts over the fundamental evidence supporting the existence, origin, and societal significance of anthropogenic climate change."

Wow! These climate scientists are so peaceful and friendly. They're like Buddhist monks.  ;D

If that statement about 'little disagreement' is true, then there's something seriously wrong. Climate is an enormously complex process with elements of chaos. The discipline of 'Climatology' did not even exist in universities until quite recently. The subject still relies upon many other disciplines such as meteorology, oceanography, geography, hydrology, geology, glaciology, plant ecology, vegetation history, physics, chemistry, and so on.

In view of the wide interdisciplinary nature of Climatology, the enormous complexity of the subject, and the impossibility of verifying certain claims through controlled experiments, which is a scientific requirement for any certainty to exist in relation to any claimed theory or hypothesis, it doesn't make sense that there would be little disagreement among the scientific experts, unless of course there is something else influencing these experts.

Skepticism is a fundamental requirement for science to progress. 'Settled' science is 'finished' science, with nothing more to learn.
I think the late Professor Stephen Schneider has explained very well what's going on. I'll repeat his relevant quote for the benefit of those who missed the quote in the 'Extreme Weather' thread.

"On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method, in effect promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but – which means that we must include all doubts, the caveats, the ifs, ands and buts.

On the other hand, we are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we’d like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climate change.

To do that we need to get some broad based support, to capture the public’s imagination. That, of course, means getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have.

This “double ethical bind” we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both."
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2019, 04:51:13 am »

Ray,

Yet, the enormous majority of experts working on the topic agree that man has most probably a large influence on global warming through the CO2 emissions it generates.

This is a fact that should not be impacted by your possible disagreement with the dominant view.

As requested initially, I would prefer not to focus this thread on another discussion about the impact of man on global warming, but about the disconnect between the large agreement in the scientific community and the strongly diverging view shared by media who give the impression that this topic is still evenly debated in the scientific community.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 05:02:17 am by BernardLanguillier »
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LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 08:02:44 am »

It would be much clearer and more beneficial if the term "Climate Change" was replaced by "Raping The Earth" with activities such as air pollution, fracking, spreading plastics and other garbage in the oceans, damming rivers, drying out lakes, mountaintops removal, clearcutting forests, destroying corals, and such. Only an idiot could dispute the negative effects of all these activities on earth and its inhabitants.
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Chris Kern

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 08:38:34 am »

As requested initially, I would prefer not to focus this thread on another discussion about the impact of man on global warming, but about the disconnect between the large agreement in the scientific community and the strongly diverging view shared by media who give the impression that this topic is still evenly debated in the scientific community.

There's an important journalistic distinction between quoting the opinions of prominent skeptics (e.g., political figures or individuals with legitimate scientific credentials) and giving the impression that the cause of climate change is still evenly debated.  The "mainstream media" invariably make it clear that the data show and most experts agree that human activity is a principal cause of global warming, and that most of the skeptics are not experts.

Of course, as the Nature Communications study points out, online sources which do not adhere to the standards of traditional news organizations frequently offer counterarguments which have no factual basis.  These, inevitably, are adopted and repeated by individuals with a political or economic agenda, as well as those who resent anything said by people they think of as elitist.

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 09:03:23 am »

This is a challenge for democracy – where everyone has a vote, but most are not qualified to use it. Who here is qualified to make a scientific judgement about climate change? Can the layman be believed when he comments on the basis of simplifications and magazine articles? Democracy has its uses if it saves us from the whims of tyrants – even if it sometimes delivers sub-optimal solutions (Exhibit A – Brexit) – but what if it condemns us to an uninhabitable planet?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 09:52:53 am »

It could very well be that the period of history that we experienced when media outlets had serious journalists and investigators on staff, funded by other sections of the newspaper/magazine, was kind of a unique thing. A lot of media and social media are now being pressured into producing click bait, since their revenues depend on advertising. The vertical media monopolies don't help this, in the sense that the public interest may not be uppermost in anyone's mind, or anyone who makes media content decisions anyway. I would say that this is an example of a "free market" being distorted by mis-aligned incentives. We want (or should) information from people who actually know stuff, but the online world is full of charlatans.

How people select what to believe or not is itself interesting. There seems to be (we are told) widespread skepticism of "experts" and "elites" but I've never heard anyone suggest that surgeons shouldn't wear latex gloves. It's because of science that we know about bacteria and viruses. Yet vaccines, recommended by those same scientists, are a target. Whatever is going on, it's not always objective or fact-based. The seeming fact that people behave this way is fertile ground for the media slant discussed in the OP's article.

There are still long-form sources of information available, both written and broadcast (especially podcast), but they are not top of mind for most people. If those outlets ever did make much money, the media giants would buy and squash them, of that I am confident. So it's a constant struggle to find the real truth and not "truthy" marketing.

Moreover, a bit off-topic, I am astonished that we (some of us anyway) are still having the "the Environment vs the Economy" debate as if they are orthogonal. The environment is the economy, what could be more obvious.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2019, 10:02:36 am »

It would be much clearer and more beneficial if the term "Climate Change" was replaced by "Raping The Earth" with activities such as air pollution, fracking, spreading plastics and other garbage in the oceans, damming rivers, drying out lakes, mountaintops removal, clearcutting forests, destroying corals, and such. Only an idiot could dispute the negative effects of all these activities on earth and its inhabitants.
Again, Les, for every negative, there is a positive, maybe many positives.   All these activities have advanced man.  We no longer live in caves by an open fire to protect us against wild animals that might devour us during the night.  At least for most of us.  That's because of advances like mining, home construction, dam created electricity, dam created fresh drinking water, etc that does modify nature coincidentally. We are species part of earth and use its materials.  I'm not suggesting we be bad stewards of the environment.  Only that doing these things have beneficial outcomes for man as a species.  We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.   

Ray

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2019, 10:22:08 am »

Ray,

Yet, the enormous majority of experts working on the topic agree that man has most probably a large influence on global warming through the CO2 emissions it generates.

This is a fact that should not be impacted by your possible disagreement with the dominant view.

As requested initially, I would prefer not to focus this thread on another discussion about the impact of man on global warming, but about the disconnect between the large agreement in the scientific community and the strongly diverging view shared by media who give the impression that this topic is still evenly debated in the scientific community.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,
I have great respect for the methodology of science. How factual and precise are the terms 'enormous majority' and 'most probably'? What is the scientific methodology that has been applied in order to determine the size of the majority that you claim is in agreement that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are the main cause of the current warming?

The other issue that needs to be addressed is the evidence that such warming, whatever its causes, will 'most probably' be harmful to the environment and humanity's future.

I take a more holistic approach to this issue. Human civilizations began when the climate began to warm after the last Ice Age. About 12,000 years ago, that huge area of the current Sahara Desert, bigger than the entire continent of Australia, was a rich grassland with lots of wildlife. Now it's a dry and hot desert, and that increasing desertification in the region no doubt contributed to the collapse of the great Egyptian Empire.

A fundamental scientific truth that needs to be emphasized is that climate has always been changing in the past, in different ways, in different regions, causing many civilizations that were not able to adapt to the changing climate, to simply collapse.

An example a recent collapse of a civilization due to a very rapid change in climate, is the Khmer civilization in Cambodia, famous for its ancient temples such as Angkor Wat, which I know you've photographed.

This area around Siem Reap is one of my favourite locations for photography. There are so many temples overgrown by the jungle, with so many beautiful carvings on the walls which are still standing, and on the fallen stones which are lying on the ground.

When I first visited the area many years ago, the historic story was that the civilization collapsed because their traditional enemy, the Thais, had successfully invaded, and the population just left the entire area, which resulted in the cities and temples gradually becoming lost in the Jungle until the French colonialists discovered the ruins in the 19th century.

However, more recent research, examining tree rings and sediments, has revealed that before the Thais attacked, there was a rapid change in climate in the early 14th century, around the same time that the Medieval Warm Period in Europe was changing to the Little Ice Age, which caused the Vikings to leave Greenland.

In other words, before the Thais attacked, the population was already beginning to depart because of periods of long droughts. As the climate cooled, the snows in the Himalayas didn't melt in the summer as much as they used to, the water flowing down the Mekong was reduced, and the rainfall in the Monsoon periods was significantly reduced.

The question we should all be asking is, which is more certain, that the climate has always been changing and will continue to change, or that the current change is unprecedented because of human emissions of CO2?

It's important because every year people are dying and losing their property because of extreme weather events that are usually not nearly unprecedented, according to the existing record. What might be unprecedented is the total value of property destroyed and the number of lives lost. That is due to the increase in population and urbanization, rather than any increase in the severity of the flood, drought or hurricane.


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jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2019, 10:35:11 am »

The question we should all be asking is, which is more certain, that the climate has always been changing and will continue to change, or that the current change is unprecedented because of human emissions of CO2?

This question has been asked and answered, and repeating the argument here is not appropriate. What is relevant is the observation that such stories continue to be repeated until they gain currency among the population, before the truth can get its boots on.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2019, 11:02:09 am »

Yes, they should be given air time... and they are being given air time... way too much it seems.

And for what it's worth, the wording climate change came after global warming, as an attempt to lower its negative perception.

Cheers,
Bernard

I know it came afterwards, introduced by those who could not prove that Man was responsible for global warming. Climate change can go in every direction.

Way too much time? Who should be the judge of that?

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2019, 11:04:38 am »

It would be much clearer and more beneficial if the term "Climate Change" was replaced by "Raping The Earth" with activities such as air pollution, fracking, spreading plastics and other garbage in the oceans, damming rivers, drying out lakes, mountaintops removal, clearcutting forests, destroying corals, and such. Only an idiot could dispute the negative effects of all these activities on earth and its inhabitants.

So are you willing to go back to the stone age? Living in caves by the fire? Or without any fire, since it requires burning wood?

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2019, 11:11:15 am »

Ray,

Yet, the enormous majority of experts working on the topic agree that man has most probably a large influence on global warming through the CO2 emissions it generates.

This is a fact that should not be impacted by your possible disagreement with the dominant view.

As requested initially, I would prefer not to focus this thread on another discussion about the impact of man on global warming, but about the disconnect between the large agreement in the scientific community and the strongly diverging view shared by media who give the impression that this topic is still evenly debated in the scientific community.

Cheers,
Bernard

"Majority" - depends on the source.
"Agree" - not really. There is plenty of disagreement.
"Probably" - makes sense.

And then you go from the above to "fact". Your last paragraph makes no sense. You want to focus the discussion on the disconnect you mention, but without discussing the underlying subject. There is no large agreement; and the topic is still debated, as it should be.

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2019, 11:36:17 am »

"Majority" - depends on the source.
"Agree" - not really. There is plenty of disagreement.
"Probably" - makes sense.

And then you go from the above to "fact". Your last paragraph makes no sense. You want to focus the discussion on the disconnect you mention, but without discussing the underlying subject. There is no large agreement; and the topic is still debated, as it should be.

This article - from a not-particularly "green" source -  is relevant. It concludes that a large majority (at least 80%) of scientists agree that climate change is human-caused.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2016/12/14/fact-checking-the-97-consensus-on-anthropogenic-climate-change/#1081de311576
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LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2019, 12:07:19 pm »

So are you willing to go back to the stone age? Living in caves by the fire? Or without any fire, since it requires burning wood?

The humanity can prosper also without wasting and abusing resources. As to burning and using wood, that's OK, since it is renewable resource, especially if the forests are properly managed.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2019, 12:10:15 pm »

There are more forests today in Canada than there were a hundred years ago.
So we must be doing something right.

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2019, 12:14:32 pm »

Agreed. But this isn't the point being discussed here.

I don't believe that layman and general articles from non experts have a strong impact on the opinion of the public. What has an impact is sources that are represented - often unfairly in this case - as being a legitimate authority.

The issue being described here is that those voices with limited legitimacy gets too much air time and therefore influence public more than they should.

I don't believe that anyone would be stupid enough to dispute the relevance of climate change/global warming and the impact human activity has on it through CO2 emissions simply out of a political agenda, right? I believe that the people who don't believe man originated CO2 emissions have a major negative impact have formed this opinion based on inputs they got from a source they consider legitimate.

Cheers,
Bernard

Let's face it most people don't know who the vice president of the United States is. Most people read headlines and if they're lucky they remember some of the facts about them. So what's in the headlines is what influences people's beliefs, unfortunately. 
And those headlines come from editors who want to blame climate change on fossil fuels. That's the party line.

amolitor

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2019, 12:22:08 pm »

Rubbish.

It's Dan Quayle.
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