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Author Topic: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science  (Read 50598 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2019, 10:36:29 am »

... And how many of us have the necessary scientific background and specialist knowledge required to rationally determine what makes "sense"?

We don’t have to. We still have to form an opinion, based on general education and common sense, because we vote. In that sense, Ray’s call for audiatur et altera pars makes perfect sense. Experts, buy the very nature of the concept, tend to have a rather narrow field of expertise, which makes them susceptible to not seeing the forest for the trees.

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2019, 10:49:01 am »

We don’t have to. We still have to form an opinion, based on general education and common sense, because we vote. In that sense, Ray’s call for audiatur et altera pars makes perfect sense. Experts, buy the very nature of the concept, tend to have a rather narrow field of expertise, which makes them susceptible to not seeing the forest for the trees.

You have to vote, but that's not the same as judging the issue independently. The sensible voter should surely choose according to what he is told by the great majority of those equipped to judge, and not on the basis of some bloke on the internet telling him how the Thames once froze over.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2019, 11:33:21 am »

... The sensible voter should surely choose according to what he is told by the great majority of those equipped to judge..

Nope. Simply nope.

As long as I have my sane mind, I'll vote how I think, not how somebody told me to.

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2019, 11:38:37 am »

Nope. Simply nope.

As long as I have my sane mind, I'll vote how I think, not how somebody told me to.

That's not what I said. Nobody told you how to vote. Somebody explained a phenomenon to you. How you vote having heard that explanation is up to you. My oncologist tells me I can choose chemo or radiation or do nothing. My choice, but I'm not pretending to second guess the diagnosis.
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faberryman

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2019, 11:48:11 am »

That's not what I said. Nobody told you how to vote. Somebody explained a phenomenon to you. How you vote having heard that explanation is up to you. My oncologist tells me I can choose chemo or radiation or do nothing. My choice, but I'm not pretending to second guess the diagnosis.
The problem is there are a lot of layman second guessing the diagnosis, and for some reason a subset of people want to believe them. I am more interested in the psychological makeup of the person who is inclined to believe the climate change deniers in the face of the scientific evidence. What else do they believe? Do they believe in gravity? Do they believe the world is round. Do they believe that the sun is the center of the solar system? Do they believe the moon landing was faked? Do they believe in alien abductions? Do they believe in Big Foot? What are their political beliefs? Do they believe the Newtown shooting was a hoax. Do they believe the Clintons are running a pedophile ring out of the basement of a pizza parlor? Do they believe in QAnon? Do they believe what Donald Trump says? What are their religious beliefs? Do they believe in God? Do they believe in intelligent design? Do they believe in evolution? Do they believe in a literal interpretation of the bible? Do they believe that the earth in 6500 years old? Is there a correspondence among their beliefs? I'd love to see some Venn diagrams. Or is that too scientific?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 05:39:08 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2019, 12:07:02 pm »

Ray,

I am sorry, but with all the good will in the world, I fail to see how this disproofs the point that press coverage gives too much air time to sources not aligned with the dominant opinion that global warming is caused by man activity.

All it shows is that among articles devoted to global warming, only 1/3 were focused on the question whether it is man driven or not. You will agree with me that there are many other aspects of interest about global warming also and it is in no way surprising to see that 2/3 of the articles were interested in those.

Among those addressing the question though, close to 97% indeed conclude that it is man driven. That's a number even higher than the one I was expecting to see. 80% would be more than enough to consider this a wide spread agreement.

But again, still not related to the way media covers these 32.6% vs 0.7% right?

One you introductory point, yes, I would agree that some of the scientists alarmed about the impacts of global warming and convinced that human activity is playing an important role, may have taken the drama a little too high. But I do understand their position. Even if Alan is certainly right that there may be some positive sides to it for some people, the overall global impact seems to be pretty negative.

Cheers,
Bernard


The article should have been clear that two-thirds of the scientists took no position at all.

The 97% figure deceives the readers and lay public.

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2019, 12:13:12 pm »

That's not what I said. Nobody told you how to vote. Somebody explained a phenomenon to you. How you vote having heard that explanation is up to you. My oncologist tells me I can choose chemo or radiation or do nothing. My choice, but I'm not pretending to second guess the diagnosis.
I hope everything works out for you. It seems like you're facing one of life's challenges like I just faced with my heart. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2019, 12:29:08 pm »

... I'm not pretending to second guess the diagnosis.

Really!? Ever heard of the second-opinion concept?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2019, 12:30:13 pm »

The problem is there are a lot of layman second guessing the diagnosis, and for some reason a subset of people want to believe them. I am more interested in the psychological makeup of the person who is inclined to believe the climate deniers in the face of the scientific evidence. What else do they believe? Do they believe in gravity? Do they believe the world is round. Do they believe that the sun is the center of the solar system? Do they believe the moon landing was faked? Do they believe in alien abductions? Do they believe in Big Foot? What are their political beliefs? Do they believe the Newtown shooting was a hoax. Do they believe the Clintons are running a pedophile ring out of the basement of a pizza parlor? Do they believe in QAnon? What are their religious beliefs? Do they believe in God? Do they believe in intelligent design? Do they believe in evolution? Do they believe in a literal interpretation of the bible? Do they believe that the earth in 6500 years old? Is there a correspondence among their beliefs? I'd love to see some Venn diagrams. Or is that too scientific?

Oh, grow up!

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2019, 12:31:12 pm »

Really!? Ever heard of the second-opinion concept?

Sure. But I'd rather get that from another doctor, not some random guy on the Internet  :-)
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jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2019, 12:33:56 pm »

I hope everything works out for you. It seems like you're facing one of life's challenges like I just faced with my heart.

My apologies Alan. My example was hypothetical. However I appreciate your kind words even if they were not needed (knock on wood) and it underlines that even if there are harsh words, we have more here that connects us than divides us. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 01:34:05 pm by jeremyrh »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2019, 12:36:54 pm »

My apologies Alan. My example was hypothetical. However I appreciate your kind words even if they were not needed (knock on wood) and it underlines that even if there at harsh words, we have more here that connects us than divides us. 

Damn! Just as I was deliberating should I preface my sympathy with "In case it was not rhetorical..."  Glad it was :)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2019, 02:47:17 pm »

Really!? Ever heard of the second-opinion concept?

The analogy here being that you will absolutely want your second opinion to come from someone recognized as being an expert about cancer.

How is he going to be recognized? By his peers, themselves experts about cancer.

Or you could also follow the advice of a Chinese practitioner specialized in energies who tells you not to undergo surgery but to heal your cancer by drinking carrot juice enhanced with white cabage dips.

How have you heard about him? From reading about his work in the press. Because the press has decided for whatever strange reason that the opinion of chinese carrot juice advisers should get as much air time as recognized Harvard doctors on the ground that all opinions should be given a fair coverage since not everyone agrees that stomach cancer should be healed by surgery.

Fortunately the press doesn’t do that for cancer or heart diseases and we would hate them if they did.

Why do recognized cancer experts think that carrot juice isn’t the best solution btw? Because, although the brother of aunt Jennie did heal from cancer drinking carrot juice, there is plenty of statistical data telling them that this is a coincidence, otherwise called a false positive.

Correlation not meaning causation, only wide spread statistical data analyzed by recognized experts using best in class analysis tools should be used to decide policies. And those reporting about these topics have a clear role to play in curating content being shared to the masses.

But that is not sufficiently the case on the subject of global warming. So the article I am linking to highlights the fact that not only do non recognized experts not shut up, but the press gives to much echo to their ramblings.

Cheers,
Bernard

P.s.: the story is real, but isn’t about me. The person got an early surgery and she is totally fine years later
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 02:59:37 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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RSL

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2019, 02:58:56 pm »

The sensible voter should surely choose according to what he is told by the great majority of those equipped to judge, and not on the basis of some bloke on the internet telling him how the Thames once froze over.

Exactly, Jeremy. That's why we know the earth actually is at the center of the universe and that the sun circles it. After all, Copernicus was the equivalent of a bloke on the internet, and the great majority of those equipped to judge knew he was wrong.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2019, 03:02:12 pm »

The article should have been clear that two-thirds of the scientists took no position at all.

The 97% figure deceives the readers and lay public.

No, the article should have said that 2/3 of the scientists working on global warming are not investigating the influence of man on global warming.

Which says absolutely nothing about them having or not an opinion about the role of man on global warming.

But I have a lot of respect for your intelligence and you know this perfectly well Alan.

Let me ask you a simple question. Why do you feel the need to rely to wicked logic to defend your position if you are right?

Is this about winning an argument or about trying to reach the truth?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:37:11 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2019, 03:13:09 pm »

Exactly, Jeremy. That's why we know the earth actually is at the center of the universe and that the sun circles it. After all, Copernicus was the equivalent of a bloke on the internet, and the great majority of those equipped to judge knew he was wrong.

Russ,

You are a smart man, why do you decide at this point to use such an obviously irrelevant argument?

If you are right, why not stick to sound logic to try to convince us instead?

To spell things out clearly, here is why the example you are using isn’t logically relevant.

Af the time of Copernicus, the dominent opinion on the mechanics of the world was ruled by a small group of religious people with vested interest in keeping the masses in the dark. They used a myth to do so.

Copernicus, on the other hand, used science to bring to the table a new explanation that still isn’t 100% proven today. The earth may in fact still be at the center of the universe and the sun may be rotating around it. But... Harvard scientists have ample data to proof us that this is most probably not the case.

And the press gives very little coverage to the few religious fanatics still thinking today that the earth is at the center of the universe. But they get some.

Similarly, nobody is saying that the people not agreeing with the dominant scientifical theory about global warming should’t be heard. Only that their voice should be given an amount of airtime proportional to the degree of credibility of their originators as assessed in terms of scientific value. Not to repeat today what happened to Copernicus

Today’s Copernicus is the majority of the scientific community thinking that man is most probably responsible for global warming. Not the opposite.

The essence of your story isn’t that opposite opinions are often right, the essence of your story is that science should prevail over myths.

So, with all due respect, your example was a very poor one.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:25:55 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2019, 03:25:52 pm »

There are no (polite) words to describe my disdain for the climate alarmists for their general religious attitude and the utter lack of logic. Must be some sort of intellectual disability?

faberryman

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2019, 03:29:16 pm »

After all, Copernicus was the equivalent of a bloke on the internet, and the great majority of those equipped to judge knew he was wrong.
Copernicus wasn't like a bloke on the internet; he was a scientist. Those that took issue with him were the established religion. And we all know what other fairy tales they were passing off as fact.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:43:45 pm by faberryman »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2019, 03:33:00 pm »

There are no (polite) words to describe my disdain for the climate alarmists for their general religious attitude and the utter lack of logic. Must be some sort of intellectual disability?

Right... and how exactly is that the case?

Would you mind pointing out what part of our reasoning isn’t logical or is or “religious nature”?

Because so far in this thread it would appear that all the illogical arguments have been put forward by those not believing in the mainstream theory.

What is happening here Slobodan is that you are trying to have this thread closed by resorting to personnel attacks.

If you are right, why do you feel the need to do so?

Cheers,
Bernard

RSL

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2019, 03:33:41 pm »

So, with all due respect, your example was a very poor one.

Really? In light of what we know now the whole argument is ridiculous, but the example tells us two things: (1) There's no such thing as a "scientific consensus," and if there is it's probably wrong. (2) The term "expert" often can be defined as "a drip under pressure." When it comes to climate, any guess is as likely to be wrong as to be right because (1) we simply don't have the data we need and (2) even if we had the data we need, we don't know how to process it.
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