Mac Pro is going black screen. New computer suggestions?

[Joe Towner]

Hey Bob,

I stand by my statement - the Drobo can be configured to be resilient to a single or double drive failure, but the Drobo will only create a single volume (disk pool).  You can't build 2 separate RAID1 pairs. You can't say take these 4 drives and setup RAID5 but I want to leave this extra disk as a separate volume - the Drobo wants to own & control everything inside it.  The way to think of a Drobo is that it's got it's own computer inside it.  It 'presents' a drive to your computer and hides all the details in the background. The Drobo 5D3 has a mSATA slot on the bottom for caching support - this is something you'd see on a NAS, but Drobo wraps it all up & hides it behind a single drive letter (or disk label).  That's how it can do thin provisioning & disk expansion.

If the purpose is to put 2 drives into a Drobo, have one drive backup to the other (using GoodSync/ChronoSync/Hedge/etc), then it is the wrong solution and you want a USB-C to multi-bay SATA enclosure.  If you put 2 drives in a Drobo & have them Mirror (RAID1) then backup that Drobo to a separate external disk, it'll be fine, but overkill.

A Drobo 5D3 is $680 without any disks in it.  It's the fun pricing of TB3 devices.  If someone is only using an enclosure for spinning hard drives, USB-C is a much cheaper option - you're not going to saturate the connection between the box & the computer.  If you're using multiple SSD's then you really to spend for the TB3 bandwidth.

-Joe

[BobShaw]

Hey Bob,
I stand by my statement - the Drobo can be configured to be resilient to a single or double drive failure, but the Drobo will only create a single volume (disk pool) ...

You did not make that statement.
Your statement was QUOTE "So there is no such thing as redundancy within a Drobo" UNQUOTE and I replied "Sorry, but you first sentence is completely wrong" (which it is).
Drobo provides redundancy, or the ability to resist failure. Redundancy does not necessarily mean a mirror.

The  statement "If you put 2 drives in a Drobo & have them Mirror (RAID1)" indicates that you are not familiar with Drobo. Drobo drives run on a proprietary self healing system. It does not work in Raid configurations. They call it "Beyond RAID". Raid is by contrast, generally a fixed arrangement.

Drobo does not however provide backup. What it does is to allow the data or a backup system to grow, which a single drive does not. Backup requires multiple discrete systems, or Drobo or two discrete disks or any combination (as you indicate)

[kers]

...Drobo drives run on a proprietary self healing system. It does not work in Raid configurations. They call it "Beyond RAID". Raid is by contrast, generally a fixed arrangement.
Drobo does not however provide backup. What it does is to allow the data or a backup system to grow, which a single drive does not. Backup requires multiple discrete systems, or Drobo or two discrete disks or any combination (as you indicate)

So if i understand correctly with a two disk Drobo Dan Berg still has to have a backup.
I can imagine it starts to dazzle for him, with all this discussion...

[dgberg]

 
Here I thought 1 drive for photos and the other mirrored for backup. If one quits the other one still has all my photos, right or wrong?

[Joe Towner]

You did not make that statement.
Your statement was QUOTE "So there is no such thing as redundancy within a Drobo" UNQUOTE and I replied "Sorry, but you first sentence is completely wrong" (which it is).
Drobo provides redundancy, or the ability to resist failure. Redundancy does not necessarily mean a mirror.

The  statement "If you put 2 drives in a Drobo & have them Mirror (RAID1)" indicates that you are not familiar with Drobo. Drobo drives run on a proprietary self healing system. It does not work in Raid configurations. They call it "Beyond RAID". Raid is by contrast, generally a fixed arrangement.

Drobo does not however provide backup. What it does is to allow the data or a backup system to grow, which a single drive does not. Backup requires multiple discrete systems, or Drobo or two discrete disks or any combination (as you indicate)

Bob, you seem to be splitting hairs, thinking your knife is sharper.  I made that statement, and then followed it with specifics as to what the Drobo does offer. I then went into how the Drobo is handling things regarding it's internal functions.  I simplified my description on how a 5 bay Drobo with 2 identical disks are setup, equating it RAID1 - yes, this is not using the BeyondRAID technical labels, but it's the same effective outcome - all data is on 2 physical drives.

Your point is?  What else in either of my posts do you think is wrong?  I am a firm believer that storage (and computing) has to be kept simple.  Based on the questions asked so far, I'm hesitant to recommend anything complex.

I don't think a Drobo is needed for 4TB of data - there are better, simpler solutions available. Having a 4TB drive for photos, and a 8TB drive backing up both the 1TB NVMe & the photos drive using TimeMachine is really a great place to be.  If you want to be more active, adding an offsite via BackBlaze makes it even better (make sure to exclude the 8TB TimeMachine drive).  Want to be more protected, switch from a single 4TB to something like a MyBook Duo & set it in RAID1 - 8TB MyBook Duo is $330 (has 2x 4TB hard drives, so in RAID1 mode it's 4TB of space).

The use cases for a Drobo is for larger data sets (greater than a single drive) or need the performance of multiple drives (but not the performance of SSD or NVMe).  I would also say that a Drobo user is near the same technical level user as a NAS - both have upkeep needs, but the Drobo is easier to manage.  For me, the starting point to consider a Drobo is around 10TB of current data, and expected growth of 2TB per year.  I'd put in 5x 6TB drives, with double parity/RAID6/dual disk protection.  Higher growth - go with larger disks.  The key difference between a Drobo or NAS decision is if the user is at a single desktop, or is sharing files across multiple machines or is a laptop user who like to work on a couch.

[Joe Towner]

Here I thought 1 drive for photos and the other mirrored for backup. If one quits the other one still has all my photos, right or wrong?

Yea, it's a bit of a head spin.  So there's mirroring or there is backup.  Think of them as separate options.  In mirroring, a chance to drive A is written at the same time to drive B (Drobo, MyBook Duo, SoftRAID, or other similar setups).  In backup, a change to drive A is copied to drive B on a schedule - it could be every 5 minutes, it could be every night (TimeMachine, GoodSync, or other similar software).

Let's step back and talk about workflow for a second.  When you import photos to your computer, do you have it erase the photos from the cards?  As long as you don't erase the photos as part of the import, TimeMachine will back them up within an hour, or you can even force it to happen by clicking the icon and say 'Backup Now'.  Do you do a lot of work in Photoshop directly with the files, or is it all in Lightroom?  Are you going to be working on files in a folder on say your desktop, then when you're done move them off to a Photos drive with all your other images?

[dgberg]

I presently have no backup, no time machine.
Import into Lightroom, name a new folder in pictures on my 2 tb drive and import.
Take the card out and format in camera.
When I process (mostly in Lightroom) i go to the folder and work on the Images.
Thats it.
I want to solve the no backup issue.
Feel pretty lucky to never have lost anything in 10 years.
 Let the bashing begin.

[BobShaw]

I admit to being pedantic about backup. I worked in the IT industry for a long time and the results of a mistake were either bad or very bad.

I have only ever lost photos twice, and both times were the result of cards, so I regard them as the weakest link. These days I shoot to 2 cards simultaneously so the problem is much less. I would never use an "import and delete method". I always copy the card files using the computer finder to the storage drive. The files are then renamed using a reverse date system plus original file name. The files on the card are only deleted once the storage drive has been backed up. I have 3 rotating backup disks (and a Drobo). One connected, one on the shelf and one off site.

My storage over the years has grown and is now about 3.5TB. I once had a storage of 15OMB and called it "My Big Drive". Every time you replace a disk drive with a bigger one though (on a Mac at least), the computer knows that it is a different drive. That means that your previous links and referenced files no longer work. I fixed the reference files by moving the DAM catalogue to the storage disk. When you go to back it up though it creates a complete new backup, as it regards it as a new disk. So if you have a 4TB data disk and it becomes full or fails, you can restore the disk to a new one of the same size or bigger, but the TimeMachine will tell you the backup disk is full. You therefore have cascading problem.

I therefore moved my storage to Drobo and can grow the disk and it is still regarded as the same disk. Even if the housing fails (which has happened) Drobo sends me a new one and I put the same drives in it and the computer regards it as the same disk.

For backup I just use standard external hard drives. If they get too small I just put the disks in a Drobo. Don't use a Drobo as your only backup disk though as it does not give you the ability to drag and drop easily.

I wrote a blog on storage in about 2010 called Your Digital Legacy. A bit old now but the basics are the same. You can find it by searching here http://www.takemoreholidays.com/blog/

[Joe Towner]

I presently have no backup, no time machine.
Import into Lightroom, name a new folder in pictures on my 2 tb drive and import.
Take the card out and format in camera.
When I process (mostly in Lightroom) i go to the folder and work on the Images.
Thats it.
I want to solve the no backup issue.
Feel pretty lucky to never have lost anything in 10 years.
 Let the bashing begin.

Great to hear, I think I'll make a number of recommendations that Bob will agree with.

For starters, we need to get you doing some type of backup.  The best/cheapest in the USA is with BackBlaze - it's $6 a month per computer, unlimited upload & storage, and can backup external disks as well.  That'll get your data outside your home - just in case it decides to grow legs or otherwise make itself scarce.

Since you may not have the fastest upload, nor want to wait hours/days to download or receive a drive from Backblaze, snag a single 8tb desktop drive from Costco, or your favorite online retailer.  It should be between $140 and $180, and setup TimeMachine on your Mac.  It'll give you lots of recovery for accidental image edits, plus it's can be used to restore your whole computer if you ever had to take it in to Apple for repair. Trust me on this, everything is permanently attached to the main board & to fix it they replace that board.

The last step I'm up in the air about, and hope that Bob will chime in with ideas.  If you have 2TB of data now, and aren't adding a whole lot (planning for 4tb) you might want to consider going with a single 4tb SSD in a USB-C enclosure.  They're about $600 (Samsung 860 EVO or WB Blue - don't go any cheaper**) and an enclosure is another $50 - putting them together these days doesn't even take a screw driver.  The other options are either a solo external 4tb drive or a device like the MyBook Duo 8TB configured for mirroring.  I think a Drobo or NAS would be overkill, overcomplicate & otherwise just cause problems.  I'm not worried about wearing out the SSD, the volume of copies just isn't there.

The ** are for a Micron drive that I'm eye'ing personally - https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Micron/AK3T8TBY1A/ 4TB SATA disk for $370.  I'm having personal storage issues and can't decide between the space of the 4TB SATA SSD or the speed of a 2TB NVMe external drive.  Micron is the company behind Crucial, they're in Boise, ID - and I've used their stuff a lot over the years.

Either way you go, it's going to be a lot faster than your current computer, and the 2 separate backups you have going (TimeMachine & BackBlaze) will cover you for most any disaster****.

My only other recommendation would be to move to a rotation of flash cards for your camera.  Pick up an additional card or two, that way when you get done importing the images, you can set that card aside, pull out the previously set aside card, and format that one for your next photo.  Lightroom will detect if you're importing duplicate images, plus if something catastrophic happens between import and both the backups completing, you still have the unedited images.

-Joe

[dgberg]

Greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Dan

[mcbroomf]

......
The ** are for a Micron drive that I'm eye'ing personally - https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Micron/AK3T8TBY1A/ 4TB SATA disk for $370.  I'm having personal storage issues and can't decide between the space of the 4TB SATA SSD or the speed of a 2TB NVMe external drive.  Micron is the company behind Crucial, they're in Boise, ID - and I've used their stuff a lot over the years.
.....

-Joe

I just bought 2 of the 4TB Micron drives from OWC at that price for use as storage while I'm on the road.  I had bought 2 of the Micron 2TB versions a while ago through Amazon (at a lower price than the 2TB Samsung at the time). I used them as a 4TB Raid 0 for fast LR and PS editing of recent work (all Raws and print ready files copied to 3 other places mind you).  The Raid worked fine and got used a lot (although I'm not a pro, so not every or all day). I switched the drives out with a pair of 4TB Samsung when I needed to go larger (before the Micron version was available). 

I had a problem with one of the pair of Micron 4TB drives I just bought, it kept repartitioning itself with a 2TB partition and the rest, and going off line, quite randomly (Win10).  Reformatting was the only way to get it accessible again but it would do it again.  OWC swapped it out for me and the new one seems fine, but I need to exercise both drives over the next month or so to make sure they are both stable.

Mike

[Joe Towner]

I think I should add one thing for the general public.  IT folks are an interesting bunch - ask 10 of us the same question, and you'll get 10 different answers, at least 9 of which are correct.  We all have different ways of accomplishing the same thing, be it brands we like or hate (mostly from personal experience) to the 'proper way to do' statements. 

We all swear at Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Intel, HP, Samsung and every other tech vendor out there - anyone who tells you otherwise has religious restrictions on their word usage.    There is no magic hardware, secret guaranteed to work for everyone & every situation method. We all build our protection against data loss in different ways, so mapping out a plan that works best for you is critical.

[BobShaw]

Having a plan is a great thing. If you do that then you are ahead of most. However a plan is only the first step.
Most of us probably had a plan to be rich and retired at the age of 40, but it did not happen.

Deming created a process called Plan, Do, Check Act. You plan something, you do it, you check how it works. If the plan has flaws you act to change the plan and repeat.

The simplest check that you can do what is my basic test of Backup.
Create a file on Monday, delete it by mistake on Tuesday, recover it easily on Wednesday.
If you can't do that for one file then you have no chance with all of you life's work.
Once you have that nailed then buy a spare disk and try a complete restore of all of your data from backup. Can you do it? Would it happen in a day or less? If it takes six months then you do not have a viable working system.