A very smooth baryta paper to replace Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss FB?

[elliot_n]

Hi

This week, whilst tidying my studio, I unearthed an unopened box of the now discontinued Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss FB A2.

I've just finished printing it on my Epson 3880, and it really is a wonderful paper. What I like most is its super smooth surface. I also like its ability to render sharp detail, and the absence of gloss differential. People used to complain that it scratches easily, but I've found it to be fairly robust — I keep bare 16"x20" prints in a clamshell portfolio box and they hold up well to repeated, gloveless, handling. The only thing I dislike about the paper is that it curls slightly after printing (so prints don't lie totally flat in the portfolio box).

Is there anything on the market that is a suitable replacement for this paper?

(I've used Canson Baryta and Canson Platine for various projects, but they don't quite fit the bill.)

I would need it in A2 sheets and 44" rolls.

Thanks in advance for any tips

Elliot

[bobfriedman]

Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta FB and/or Hahnemuhle Baryta FB ??

[elliot_n]

Thanks Bob.

I emailed Hahnemuhle a couple of days ago to ask if any of their current baryta papers are a good match for the Harman paper, but I've yet to receive a reply.

They offer 6 baryta papers in total:

FineArt Baryta Satin
Photo Rag Baryta
FineArt Baryta
Baryta FB
Photo Silk Baryta 310
Photo Gloss Baryta 320

[elliot_n]

A little bird has advised me that the following two papers will meet my requirements:

Hahnemuhle Photo Gloss Baryta 320
Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320

(I've ordered sample packs containing all of the Hahnemuhle baryta papers, in case there's a new finish that I prefer.)

[stockjock]

A little bird has advised me that the following two papers will meet my requirements:

Hahnemuhle Photo Gloss Baryta 320
Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320

(I've ordered sample packs containing all of the Hahnemuhle baryta papers, in case there's a new finish that I prefer.)

Your little bird is right.  Hahnemuehle Photo Gloss Baryta Paper, 320gsm is a direct replacement for that paper.  I know nothing about the Permajet though.  I love the surface on this paper but even the cut sheets have a fair amount of curl at the edges.

[elliot_n]

The little bird told me that I wouldn't be able to see any difference between the old Harman paper, the Hahnemuhle Photo Gloss Baryta 320, and the Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320.

To the framers on this forum... Are these papers particularly difficult to work with (re. curl, or anything else)? I'll be making 40" x 50" prints on a friend's large format Epson, and then taking them to a frame shop to be mounted on Dibond, and tray-framed (walnut frame, no glass, no laminate).

[Richard.Wills]

If this is the same as the old Harman gloss Baryta FBAL, then great, and ouch.

Amazing paper, but by the time you are half way through the roll, has the characteristics of a coiled spring. I'd allow the framer a few days to let the paper relax towards flat, before trying to mount to DiBond (assuming they have the space to either lay the prints flat, or tape to a wall)

[elliot_n]

Many thanks for the tip - I figured it might be somewhat awkward to work with.

I'm about to be inundated with baryta samples, so perhaps I'll find an alternative that is similarly smooth, but with a less tight curl.

[Richard.Wills]

If you find one, please let us know!

ATM, mostly using the Canson Baryta Prestige, which is very different from the gloss baryta, but also possesses the spring characteristic to a certain extent, and curing the prints taped up in the corridors and offices here. Would love to add the gloss Baryta back on to the menu - it has a unique quality (and smells like a darkroom print!).

[NAwlins_Contrarian]

Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss FB ... really is a wonderful paper. What I like most is its super smooth surface. I also like its ability to render sharp detail, and the absence of gloss differential....

Is there anything on the market that is a suitable replacement for this paper?

(I've used Canson Baryta and Canson Platine for various projects, but they don't quite fit the bill.)

Personally I've been happy with Hahnemühle Photo Gloss Baryta 320, so another vote for that. It is much smoother than Canson Platine. Like most (all?) baryta papers, it scratches more easily than many other surfaces, but IMO it is manageable. I think I made my own ICC profile for it, which is better than the canned profile I tried. I just used it to print some pictures from my daughter's high school graduation, and IMO they came out very nice.

As far as Canson Baryta and various other baryta papers, they seem to cover a wide range of surfaces / appearances.

FWIW, I also use and like Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta 310, mostly for B&W. It is a lower-gloss surface but smoother than many 'luster'-type papers. Its surface reminds me of the Ilford silk B&W RC silver halide paper that I used to like when I had a wet darkroom. But Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta 310 is considerably thicker and more high-end feeling than the Ilford RC paper (which unlike the similar glossy and 'pearl' papers, was not offered in the heavier "portfolio" weight).

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

The Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320 produces marvellous prints both in colour and monochrome, with deep blacks and vibrant colours; but scratches very very easily.

You need to be careful not even to lightly brush dust from the surface of a print as this can lightly scratch the surface.  Better to blow the dust off.

I can't speak for the Hahnemuhle Photo Gloss Baryta 320.

[elliot_n]

I tested two Innova papers yesterday:

Innova Exhibition Photo Baryta 310gsm IFA 69
Innova Exhibition Cotton Gloss 335gsm IFA 45

The former is close to what I'm looking for. It is very smooth, detail is sharp, and there is no gloss differential. The paper lies flat, and it is cheaper than other baryta papers - £141 for 50 x A2 sheets.

The latter is what I'm trying to avoid. It has a noticeable surface texture which sparkles when the print catches the light.

[elliot_n]

The Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320 produces marvellous prints both in colour and monochrome, with deep blacks and vibrant colours; but scratches very very easily.

Thanks for the feedback. I notice that Permajet also do a paper called 'FB Distinction 320' - anyone compared this with the 'Mono Gloss Baryta 320'?

[mearussi]

I tested two Innova papers yesterday:

Innova Exhibition Photo Baryta 310gsm IFA 69
Innova Exhibition Cotton Gloss 335gsm IFA 45

The former is close to what I'm looking for. It is very smooth, detail is sharp, and there is no gloss differential. The paper lies flat, and it is cheaper than other baryta papers - £141 for 50 x A2 sheets.

The latter is what I'm trying to avoid. It has a noticeable surface texture which sparkles when the print catches the light.

IFA-45 is one of my favorite papers. I use it for all of my greeting cards because it's slightly rough surface resists fingerprints, it has excellent dmax and it's soft white cotton backing makes for an excellent writing surface.
I tend to avoid smooth gloss Barytas because all the ones I've tried scratch easily. Is this also true for the IFA 69?

[elliot_n]

IFA-45 is one of my favorite papers. I use it for all of my greeting cards because it's slightly rough surface resists fingerprints, it has excellent dmax and it's soft white cotton backing makes for an excellent writing surface.
I tend to avoid smooth gloss Barytas because all the ones I've tried scratch easily. Is this also true for the IFA 69?

Yes, I tried signing both papers (in pencil, on the reverse) and the Cotton Gloss IFA 45 takes a signature much better. The Photo Baryta IFA 69 feels more like a resin paper on the reverse, so a very soft pencil is required.

I can see that the Cotton Gloss IFA 45 would be an excellent choice for greeting cards, but it is not what I'm looking for.

Re. scratching. I've never had much of a problem with the Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss FB paper. I find my matte paper of choice, Epson Hot Press Natural, much more vulnerable to scratching - I can't put those prints in a portfolio box without them scratching each other.

[elliot_n]

I've now made test prints on the Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320.

As I was told, it's a dead-ringer for the discontinued Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss FB.

(The reverse of both these papers takes a pencil signature nicely. I can only assume that the Innova Photo Baryta IFA 69 has a plastic coating on the reverse to help maintain paper flatness, and a side-effect of this is that it's harder to sign in pencil.)

[mearussi]

I've now made test prints on the Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320.

As I was told, it's a dead-ringer for the discontinued Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss FB.

(The reverse of both these papers takes a pencil signature nicely. I can only assume that the Innova Photo Baryta IFA 69 has a plastic coating on the reverse to help maintain paper flatness, and a side-effect of this is that it's harder to sign in pencil.)

Sounds like a nice paper. Unfortunately, I don't think Permajet is available in the U.S.

[elliot_n]

Sounds like a nice paper. Unfortunately, I don't think Permajet is available in the U.S.

I've just finished making A3+ test prints on all of the Hahnemuhle baryta papers + some Innova, Canson and Permajet papers. I'll post my thoughts later.  In the meantime, my little bird was correct:

Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss FB (discontinued) = Hahnemuhle Photo Gloss Baryta 320 = Permajet FB Mono Gloss Baryta 320

These three papers are identical.

[deliberate1]

The latter is what I'm trying to avoid. It has a noticeable surface texture which sparkles when the print catches the light.

I print exclusively with the Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta. It is a splendid paper for my color and monochrome work. As has been mentioned, it is prone to significant curl, even the 13x19 sheets. That bend, I think, contributes to the, propensity to come out of the printer, often with fatal scratches. Recently, I have played with the paper settings  and have made some progress. I set the platen gap to wide and paper thickness to 4mm. The last several prints have birthed with no scratches. Given the cost of this paper, that is a good thing.
But more to your point, the latest iteration does have small reflective specks that reflect quite vividly. The previous generation of paper, as recall, did not have that characteristic
For those of you who use it, can you share what profile you use. I had fatal color mismatch when ever I left it to Photoshop to manage the colors. I had to resort to ICM, which was still inconsistent. But I had a new computer made, and downloaded the Epson drivers for Windows 10. Since then I have let Photoshop handle the colors, and i use the Epson PLPP profile. Excellent results.

[elliot_n]

I print exclusively with the Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta. It is a splendid paper for my color and monochrome work. As has been mentioned, it is prone to significant curl, even the 13x19 sheets. That bend, I think, contributes to the, propensity to come out of the printer, often with fatal scratches. Recently, I have played with the paper settings  and have made some progress. I set the platen gap to wide and paper thickness to 4mm. The last several prints have birthed with no scratches. Given the cost of this paper, that is a good thing.

I've never had scratches, but I've often had the printhead skimming the curled edge of the paper, depositing specks of black ink. I previously set up my Epson 3880 to compensate for this (with the same settings as you - platen gap 'wide', thickness '4'), but today I noticed that those settings have been overwritten and I've been printing at default settings. Doh!

But more to your point, the latest iteration does have small reflective specks that reflect quite vividly. The previous generation of paper, as recall, did not have that characteristic.

This is concerning. The samples of Hahnemuhle Photo Gloss Baryta 320 that I tested today have no sparkle. Are we talking about the same paper (Hahnemuhle sell six different baryta papers)?

For those of you who use it, can you share what profile you use. I had fatal color mismatch when ever I left it to Photoshop to manage the colors. I had to resort to ICM, which was still inconsistent. But I had a new computer made, and downloaded the Epson drivers for Windows 10. Since then I have let Photoshop handle the colors, and i use the Epson PLPP profile. Excellent results.

For the most part, the canned Hahnemuhle profiles (downloadable from their website) are quite good. Once I settle on a paper, I get custom profiles made. I printed the test sheets of Hahnemuhle Photo Gloss Baryta 320 first with the Hahnemuhle profile, and then with a custom profile I had made for the old Harman by Hahnenulhle Gloss FB paper - the results were very similar.