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Author Topic: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control  (Read 1891 times)

Doug Peterson

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Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« on: June 25, 2019, 07:00:23 am »

The first major update to the Phase One IQ4 is expected to be released to users next week. It brings:
- Automatic Frame Averaging
- Improved storage options
- The ability to load custom C1 Styles into the back

It also fixes the vertical bug we reported on (thanks to our savvy user) and is expected to add a B/T mode to ES when used on a tech camera. It does not include zero latency or Ad Hoc wireless.

We (DT) will have more information, sample files, and analysis up on our website later today.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 07:10:45 am by Doug Peterson »
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2019, 07:33:40 am »

Will automatic frame averaging work on a tech camera with ES? Or only XF.

I am assuming it’s only with XF

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2019, 07:37:28 am »

Will automatic frame averaging work on a tech camera with ES? Or only XF.

I am assuming it’s only with XF

It works on any camera the IQ4 works on, including tech cameras and view cameras (e.g. Arca R).

Indeed, given how game-changing I expect this feature to be to landscape and architecture shooters, I'd expect a lot of use of this feature on tech cameras.

Paul2660

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2019, 09:58:26 am »

Great, looking forward to seeing your report.

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2019, 11:37:23 am »

Our initial write up is here, including raws from Denmark. Just as soon as we can we'll have more raw files shot here in NYC and/or LA to share.

https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/the-phase-one-iq4-now-has-automatic-frame-averaging/

rogerxnz

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2019, 05:11:09 pm »

I am not sure that I understand what frame averaging means but the mention of in-camera multiple exposures interests me.

Do you know whether, when doing multiple exposures, the back shows you, when composing the next shot, the previous image or some kind of mask of the previous shot?

Roger
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2019, 11:22:04 pm »

Interesting development indeed.

Clear article well to the point. Except for the surprising mention of the Canon 5Dr has some sort of high end 35mm camera... when it is based on the most outdated sensor available on the market today. :D

Cheers,
Bernard

SrMi

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2019, 11:39:03 pm »

Interesting development indeed.

Clear article well to the point. Except for the surprising mention of the Canon 5Dr has some sort of high end 35mm camera... when it is based on the most outdated sensor available on the market today. :D

Cheers,
Bernard

I commend Phase One for adding this feature.

It seems to me that it is essentially Nikon D8xx multiple exposure with a different/better UI.
I do not know if Nikon would have gapless exposures if using ES.

A useful application of that feature would be to eliminate the need for long exposure NR.

I do not understand why many manufacturers have either skipped on multiple exposure feature or generate only JPG as output.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 11:44:58 pm »

I would think that multiple exposure is simply sequential addition while averaging needs to manipulate all the images as a set in memory?

The other cameras may not have enough memory to manage this?

Besides the development for those has been more focused on using the IBIS to do space multi-shot rather than time based one?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 11:48:18 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 11:46:00 pm »

Quote
Moreover, the IQ4 can do it entirely free of temporal gaps

I would like to know how can you achieve that, considering the scan time required for each exposure.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 11:49:33 pm »

I would like to know how can you achieve that, considering the scan time required for each exposure.

Each exposure takes the time it takes, but the time gap btw the end of an exposure and the start of the next one can be very short.

Cheers,
Bernard

FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2019, 12:00:30 am »

Each exposure takes the time it takes, but the time gap btw the end of an exposure and the start of the next one can be very short.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, but you don't capture the entire image at once as if you were using a global shutter. The most you can get is to start scanning the first line of pixels once you finish the last line of pixels of the previous frame, which means you have gaps per line

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2019, 12:04:48 am »

Yes, but you don't capture the entire image at once as if you were using a global shutter. The most you can get is to start scanning the first line of pixels once you finish the last line of pixels of the previous frame, which means you have gaps per line

Yes, indeed.

https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/phase-ones-electronic-shutter-in-detail/

Scan time appears to be o.3 to o.6s.

Our favorite dealers may be able to confirm if our understanding is correct or not.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 12:09:38 am by BernardLanguillier »
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SrMi

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 12:09:34 am »

I would think that multiple exposure is simply sequential addition while averaging needs to manipulate all the images as a set in memory?

The other cameras may not have enough memory to manage this?

Besides the development for those has been more focused on using the IBIS to do space multi-shot rather than time based one?

Cheers,
Bernard

In multiple exposure mode Nikon can use averaging overlay mode which should give the same result as Phase One (other options are Add, Lighten and Darken). However, Nikon's multiple exposure allows for a maximum of 9 or 10 exposures. I wonder what is the max number of exposures in Phase One's implementation.

The multi-shot technology requires different technology while multiple exposure is more about software and, as you said, available memory.
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 01:02:17 am »

In multiple exposure mode Nikon can use averaging overlay mode which should give the same result as Phase One (other options are Add, Lighten and Darken). However, Nikon's multiple exposure allows for a maximum of 9 or 10 exposures. I wonder what is the max number of exposures in Phase One's implementation.

The multi-shot technology requires different technology while multiple exposure is more about software and, as you said, available memory.

One possible way to allow for unlimited exposures without a ridiculous amount of memory is to average each frame with the previous (average), so you just have to add and divide by 2 (or shift 1 bit in binary numbers). This is not "rigorous" averaging by mathematical definition, but if the brightness of the scene does not change, it would work fine.

FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2019, 01:19:24 am »

Actually there is a way to calculate the rigorous average every time a new frame is exposed:

Suppose 2 frames A1 & A2, then average = (A1+A2)/2

If you have 3 frames A1, A2 & A3, you can either do average = (A1 + A2 + A3)/3 or  2*((A1+A2)/2))/3 + A3/3.

Note that the part of the equation highlighted in bold is the same as the average of two images, or "Previous average", so we can write:

Average of n images =  (n-1)*(previous average)/n + (new exposure)/n ; for the nth exposure.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2019, 03:03:51 am »

In multiple exposure mode Nikon can use averaging overlay mode which should give the same result as Phase One (other options are Add, Lighten and Darken). However, Nikon's multiple exposure allows for a maximum of 9 or 10 exposures. I wonder what is the max number of exposures in Phase One's implementation.

The multi-shot technology requires different technology while multiple exposure is more about software and, as you said, available memory.

Current maximum number of frames is 1000. But I don’t get the impression that limit is set in stone, and personally I’m advocating for a higher limit; power users hate limits, even when they are very high.

Back when I used to be a programmer my boss told me “think of the highest value a user could ever possibly want, in even the most absurd use case, then if doesn’t cost anything, add a zero or two” in regards to input fields and testing, which is often just a matter of allowing an extra digit and making some poor sap be the one sitting at a screen testing that a higher number doesn’t somehow cause problems.

SrMi

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 09:41:54 am »

Current maximum number of frames is 1000. But I don’t get the impression that limit is set in stone, and personally I’m advocating for a higher limit; power users hate limits, even when they are very high.

Back when I used to be a programmer my boss told me “think of the highest value a user could ever possibly want, in even the most absurd use case, then if doesn’t cost anything, add a zero or two” in regards to input fields and testing, which is often just a matter of allowing an extra digit and making some poor sap be the one sitting at a screen testing that a higher number doesn’t somehow cause problems.

Very nice. The camera is probably doing averaging every time a new exposure is performed, as has been suggested here by others.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 12:41:02 pm »

We've updated our article with new ISO50 comparisons at a high zoom level so you can easily examine the detail/noise change online. We will also have the raws available for direct download in about an hour so you can dive deep into them within Capture One.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ4 - Feature Update 1 - Creative Control
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 02:22:20 pm »

The IQ4 Frame Averaging Raw Files are now available for download via our article (scroll to bottom).
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