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Author Topic: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other  (Read 67560 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #920 on: July 30, 2019, 01:33:08 pm »

Actually, an alien seeking asylum in the United States typically arrives at a designated port of entry and makes a request for asylum to a U.S. immigration inspector.  If the request is plausible on its face (i.e., if the alien has asserted a claim which, if true, would justify a grant of asylum under U.S. law), the case is referred for adjudication.  This is not considered an illegal entry.

The law also permits an alien who has entered the country illegally to enter a request for asylum as an affirmative defense in immigration removal proceedings.

To be granted asylum, aliens must credibly demonstrate that they have experienced or face persecution due to race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.

Thanks Chris, this looks like an excellent description of the actual situation (not fake news at all), and succinctly worded. Maybe it's even educational to some forum posters from the USA, since it contradicts their initial reactions.

Cheers,
Bart 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #921 on: July 30, 2019, 01:37:56 pm »

... Maybe it's even educational to some forum posters from the USA, since it contradicts their initial reactions.

Contradicts how?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #922 on: July 30, 2019, 02:00:10 pm »

Contradicts how?

Apparently it still needs to be spelled out: e.g. their legal status.

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #923 on: July 30, 2019, 02:48:18 pm »

Apparently it still needs to be spelled out: e.g. their legal status.

Instead of trying that condescending tone, how about you explain what is contradictory in what I said?

RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #924 on: July 30, 2019, 03:36:56 pm »

Thanks Chris, this looks like an excellent description of the actual situation (not fake news at all), and succinctly worded. Maybe it's even educational to some forum posters from the USA, since it contradicts their initial reactions.

Cheers,
Bart

Chris's statement is an accurate and balanced description of the law, Bart, but it leaves out part of the story. Once an alien has been determined by an immigration inspector to have enough of a case to be scheduled for a hearing before a judge, the alien's supposed to be kept in custody until the hearing. With the masses of people applying for asylum there simply aren't enough facilities to keep them in custody. The get turned loose to wander at will until their hearing dates. Congress won't address the problem, so it isn't going to go away any time soon. The intention by the Democrats in refusing to address the problem is to add as many future Democrat voters as possible.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #925 on: July 30, 2019, 04:17:08 pm »

If Elizabeth Warren gets elected president, get ready for new negotiations.  She has a different idea of what should be in these trade agreements, mainly to protect consumers, not the businesses themselves.  You'll be be wishing Trump had won.  She's going to want even more wampum from you than Trump.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/29/elizabeth-warren-wants-to-rewrite-the-rules-on-negotiating-trade-deals.html

Why should government protect businesses and not consumers? Aren't consumers citizens?

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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #926 on: July 30, 2019, 04:58:27 pm »

Alan, this thread is about the lack of understanding between Republicans and Democrats. You should welcome a fresh look from someone who looks in from the outside and wonders what the peculiarities are and what the difference is with their reference system.

I am not saying that my country is perfect in everything, but we do have a system of governance that is clearly different from yours. Firstly, we are a democracy, which I have been told by some forum members the US is not. That alone makes a big difference. Maybe you should try it, maybe you like it...

As a United Nations member and modern society, we have a reasonably decent and morally justifiable procedure in place.

The link you supplied gives a reasonable description of how foreigners are handled and that proper identification/documentation is required.

There is always a chance that people try to illegally enter via the European borders. Without the proper permits or an application for asylum, they are illegal and stand to be deported (and maybe arrested until they are properly identified), to be sent back to their home country.

Permits to stay can have an expiration period from several months to years (depending on the type of permit), or people can apply for citizenship (which is not automatically granted). Children that are born during the stay of the parent(s), acquire the nationality of (one of) the parents. So they too need a permit to stay which will expire.

Of course there are the exceptions which confirm the rule, and those will be attempted to be dealt with in a case-by-case humane manner.

These 'foreigners' will be treated as human beings (within the possibilities of temporary housing which may be less than ideal, basic medical care, and if an asylum procedure takes a long period then children may get education), just like a civilized country should.

Cheers,
Bart

You're not a true democracy.  Neither are we. The Netherlands and the US are representative democracies.  Parliamentarians represents the Dutch people and Congressmen and Senators represent Americans.   Additionally, you still have a monarch.  Don't you think your ought to give that up? It's rather passe.

You didn't deny that The Netherlands puts you in jail if you are caught as an illegal any less than what we do in America.  So you're no better or worse than we are.  Additional, it's harder to enter legally and become a citizen in the Netherlands than in America.  We take in 1,000,000  legal immigrants a year. 

Chris Kern

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #927 on: July 30, 2019, 05:02:12 pm »

Thanks Chris, this looks like an excellent description of the actual situation (not fake news at all), and succinctly worded.

It was not intended to be comprehensive, however.  Aliens who enter the United States with a valid visa or under the visa-waiver program may also apply for asylum.  Applicants may also file requests at a U.S. diplomatic mission in another country; in that situation, U.S. law refers to them as refugees.  The current political controversy here is over people who are requesting asylum at a port-of-entry.  In many cases—probably the overwhelming majority—their real motivation is economic, and their applications for asylum will be denied.

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #928 on: July 30, 2019, 05:05:37 pm »

Why should government protect businesses and not consumers? Aren't consumers citizens?


I never said government shouldn't protect consumers.  I was just making a point that if Warren gets elected as President, the whole NAFTA agreement now called USMCA will have to be renegotiated again and people will be wishing that Trump was still there.  I'm not sure how she intends to add consumers to international trade negotiations that affects how businesses sell their goods to other countries.  But whatever she has in mind, will throw a kink in the whole deal.  Sort of what happened to the Iran deal that had not gotten Senate approval. It was thrown out by a subsequent president.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #929 on: July 30, 2019, 05:21:47 pm »

Additionally, you still have a monarch.  Don't you think your ought to give that up? It's rather passe.

Canada and UK are also headed by a monarch. It is passé, of course, but I heard a good argument a couple of weeks ago for the benefits of a monarch. Having one means that, figuratively at least, the head of state is not a crass lying loud-mouthed ambitious politician who can't be trusted, but rather it is someone with an historical attachment to the country.

It doesn't negate the silliness of an inherited title, but I like the idea that the highest placed politician has to report to someone, more frequently than once every 3 or 4 years I mean. Might help to keep them humble. It might be advantageous to devise a system that retains the best of both these worlds, that is, institute a high office of some dignity but not have it depend on carnal heredity. Won't happen but fun to speculate.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #930 on: July 30, 2019, 05:24:49 pm »

Another angry anti-Trump deal by Democrats.  frankly, it's voter suppression.  California voted to require presidential candidates to release their tax returns to run in their state.  It adds requirements to run for president that isn't listed in the Constitution which only requires that you be a native born citizen and 35 years or older. I don't see how it's going to pass muster in the Supreme Court.   Chris, what do you think?
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-07-30/trump-tax-returns-california-ballot-gavin-newsom-law

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #931 on: July 30, 2019, 05:26:42 pm »

Canada and UK are also headed by a monarch. It is passé, of course, but I heard a good argument a couple of weeks ago for the benefits of a monarch. Having one means that, figuratively at least, the head of state is not a crass lying loud-mouthed ambitious politician who can't be trusted, but rather it is someone with an historical attachment to the country.

It doesn't negate the silliness of an inherited title, but I like the idea that the highest placed politician has to report to someone, more frequently than once every 3 or 4 years I mean. Might help to keep them humble. It might be advantageous to devise a system that retains the best of both these worlds, that is, institute a high office of some dignity but not have it depend on carnal heredity. Won't happen but fun to speculate.



Well, my wife loves the British royals.  She follows the kids mainly and their children.  Sometimes I think I married an Englishwoman.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #932 on: July 30, 2019, 05:31:03 pm »

Well, my wife loves the British royals.  She follows the kids mainly and their children.  Sometimes I think I married an Englishwoman.

Why would only Democrats want to know a potential President's financial obligations? I don't see why this is a partisan issue, although I'm sure that it is the current Trump tax impasse that prompted this move. But these kinds of changes are almost always responses to something that is always going to appear partisan. In the long run, it isn't.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #933 on: July 30, 2019, 05:40:17 pm »

Why would only Democrats want to know a potential President's financial obligations? I don't see why this is a partisan issue, although I'm sure that it is the current Trump tax impasse that prompted this move. But these kinds of changes are almost always responses to something that is always going to appear partisan. In the long run, it isn't.
Well, California, run by Democrats, want to get at Trump's tax returns.  That's partisan.  But it's a bad law regardless.  What's to stop any state from requiring a candidates' medical records?  After all, knowing how well a president may be in office seems like a pretty important bit of knowledge for voters as well.   Where will the new requirements stop?  That why I think it's unconstitutional. 

Chris Kern

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #934 on: July 30, 2019, 05:55:22 pm »

California voted to require presidential candidates to release their tax returns to run in their state.  It adds requirements to run for president that isn't listed in the Constitution which only requires that you be a native born citizen and 35 years or older. I don't see how it's going to pass muster in the Supreme Court.   Chris, what do you think?

Assuming there actually is a federal question here—whether there is would be a threshold issue to be adjudicated—until a lawsuit challenging the statute* has been filed and briefed, and decided at the trial court level, and appealed to a higher court and briefed, I think it would be reckless for anyone except a partisan (or maybe a lawyer for one of the parties speaking for public relations purposes) to predict the outcome of such a case.
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*As far as I can tell, the enacted law has not yet officially been published, but the bill that passed the California legislature is available here.

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #935 on: July 30, 2019, 06:40:16 pm »

Assuming there actually is a federal question here—whether there is would be a threshold issue to be adjudicated—until a lawsuit challenging the statute* has been filed and briefed, and decided at the trial court level, and appealed to a higher court and briefed, I think it would be reckless for anyone except a partisan (or maybe a lawyer for one of the parties speaking for public relations purposes) to predict the outcome of such a case.
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*As far as I can tell, the enacted law has not yet officially been published, but the bill that passed the California legislature is available here.

This is a forum where people give their opinions all the time.  Even reckless opinions. :)

Let's assume the law will say how the bill reads. Then, a candidate sues the state of California for impeding his right to run for office unless he releases his tax returns to the Secretary of State who will release tax details to the public about the person's income, taxes, deductions, contributions, etc.  Do you think that's constitutional?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #936 on: July 30, 2019, 08:54:34 pm »

You're not a true democracy.  Neither are we. The Netherlands and the US are representative democracies.  Parliamentarians represents the Dutch people and Congressmen and Senators represent Americans.   Additionally, you still have a monarch.  Don't you think your ought to give that up? It's rather passe.

Not really, and I hesitate to explain, because I think our cultures are different to enough not understand each other without serious effort.

As usual, I'm willing to make an effort. I have followed a cross-cultural training course at my own request, when I was asked by my then employer to take on the role of Business Controller of a commercial division (in Professional Photography) for several countries (Belgium, France, the Netherlands). That proved to me to be a bit of an eye-opener, in addition to the functional differences that are created (and expected) in Multi-National enterprises (where countries tend to defend their own position, but not necessarily the position of the international conglomerate).

Quote
You didn't deny that The Netherlands puts you in jail if you are caught as an illegal any less than what we do in America.

No, because 'we' do. HOWEVER(!), we do NOT employ the political tactic (it's only political 'because' it is not effective), of trying to scare away people by inhumane treatment, because it only achieves INHUMANE TREATMENT, and not really solves anything, There are better (not easier, but better) ways to pursue, like taking away the reasons why these people have to flee their country of birth (I know, it's radical, but only if you follow the hollow mantra of America first, at the expense of others).

Free advise, looking in from the outside, although it requires a less racially motivated President who even gives a fig about his country (when do you guys/gals wake up?), and not only about himself. Abandon the America first mantra in the way Trump promotes it. Turn it around to something that REALLY takes the wellbeing of the entire American people at heart, and not of just the Trump organization and its financiers to favor personal re-election goals.

Quote
So you're no better or worse than we are.

It's not about "better" or "worse" (which is an American cultural hangup, you think you can only become 'better' at the expense of someone else getting 'worse'). Instead, it's about doing the right thing, humanly speaking, for all affected.

Quote
Additional, it's harder to enter legally and become a citizen in the Netherlands than in America.  We take in 1,000,000  legal immigrants a year.

Hand-picked immigrants, who are part of the American business model (not really for compassion, humanitarian reasons, or otherwise). You say that it is more difficult to become a legal citizen in the Netherlands (than is the case in the US, I have to assume). Are there reliable sources that suggest that this is the case, or attempted by the government (e.g. to ensure an adequate work force for certain job-levels?), or even true, for that explanation (I assume you did your homework before you had anti-peristaltic functions taking over from your brain)?

I would appreciate an honest answer.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 09:27:20 pm by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #937 on: July 30, 2019, 09:01:13 pm »

It was not intended to be comprehensive, however.  Aliens who enter the United States with a valid visa or under the visa-waiver program may also apply for asylum.  Applicants may also file requests at a U.S. diplomatic mission in another country; in that situation, U.S. law refers to them as refugees.  The current political controversy here is over people who are requesting asylum at a port-of-entry.  In many cases—probably the overwhelming majority—their real motivation is economic, and their applications for asylum will be denied.

Thanks for adding that. It is the case in Europe, that we tend to honor true asylum seekers' requests, before those of economical fortune-seekers. These true refugees often also prefer to return to their homeland, when it is safe to do so.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 09:30:23 pm by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #938 on: July 30, 2019, 09:20:18 pm »

Canada and UK are also headed by a monarch. It is passé, of course, but I heard a good argument a couple of weeks ago for the benefits of a monarch. Having one means that, figuratively at least, the head of state is not a crass lying loud-mouthed ambitious politician who can't be trusted, but rather it is someone with an historical attachment to the country.

It doesn't negate the silliness of an inherited title, but I like the idea that the highest placed politician has to report to someone, more frequently than once every 3 or 4 years I mean. Might help to keep them humble. It might be advantageous to devise a system that retains the best of both these worlds, that is, institute a high office of some dignity but not have it depend on carnal heredity. Won't happen but fun to speculate.

+1

BTW, our King Willem-Alexander and Prime Minister Mark Rutte meet every Monday. What exactly these two discuss is confidential. The Prime Minister informs the King about the current government policy.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #939 on: July 30, 2019, 09:53:14 pm »

Not really, and I hesitate to explain, because I think our cultures are different to enough not understand each other without serious effort.

As usual, I'm willing to make an effort. I have followed a cross-cultural training course at my own request, when I was asked by my then employer to take on the role of Business Controller of a commercial division (in Professional Photography) for several countries (Belgium, France, the Netherlands). That proved to me to be a bit of an eye-opener, in addition to the functional differences that are created (and expected) in Multi-National enterprises (where countries tend to defend their own position, but not necessarily the position of the international conglomerate).

No, because 'we' do. HOWEVER(!), we do NOT employ the political tactic (it's only political 'because' it is not effective), of trying to scare away people by inhumane treatment, because it only achieves INHUMANE TREATMENT, and not really solves anything, There are better (not easier, but better) ways to pursue, like taking away the reasons why these people have to flee their country of birth (I know, it's radical, but only if you follow the hollow mantra of America first, at the expense of others).

Free advise, looking in from the outside, although it requires a less racially motivated President who even gives a fig about his country (when do you guys/gals wake up?), and not only about himself. Abandon the America first mantra in the way Trump promotes it. Turn it around to something that REALLY takes the wellbeing of the entire American people at heart, and not of just the Trump organization and its financiers to favor personal re-election goals.

It's not about "better" or "worse" (which is an American cultural hangup, you think you can only become 'better' at the expense of someone else getting 'worse'). Instead, it's about doing the right thing, humanly speaking, for all affected.

Hand-picked immigrants, who are part of the American business model (not really for compassion, humanitarian reasons, or otherwise). You say that it is more difficult to become a legal citizen in the Netherlands (than is the case in the US, I have to assume). Are there reliable sources that suggest that this is the case, or attempted by the government (e.g. to ensure an adequate work force for certain job-levels?), or even true, for that explanation (I assume you did your homework before you had anti-peristaltic functions taking over from your brain)?

I would appreciate an honest answer.

Cheers,
Bart

You really don't know America but seem to hate it a lot. 
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