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Author Topic: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other  (Read 67779 times)

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #840 on: July 26, 2019, 02:31:47 pm »

No (though I appreciate the "possibly" part).

No one prohibited Mueller from proving providing sufficient evidence of the obstruction and making the case. He just couldn't formally indict, but he could have said to the Congress "I proved it provided sufficient evidence, you impeach."

But isn't that basically what he did?   He clearly and distinctly laid out multiple instances that meet all three statutory requirements for obstruction of justice., and he specifically framed them as such.  He couldn't indict, and it wasn't within his range of options (as I understand it) to make any specific recommendation to Congress.   

Take Trump out of it - assume any given president is subject to an investigation in which the investigator is legally prohibited from bringing an indictment, and doesn't have standing to refer the alleged crime to the body which CAN bring the matter to trial.  What is the investigator supposed to do in that case aside from lay out specific evidence that meets the threshold in a manner that says exactly that?  Are we then back to, "If the President does it, it's not illegal?"
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #841 on: July 26, 2019, 02:40:10 pm »

But isn't that basically what he did?   He clearly and distinctly...

If that is so "clear and distinct," then it would be no problem to impeach him, no? Even if ultimately rejected by the Senate, Dems would have a moral upper hand in clearly proving the crimes, which would come handy at election time. The problem, of course, is that not everything that a prosecutor alleges can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court (or Senate). And both you and I agreed that none of those instances represent impeachable offenses (of course, you and I are not lawyers and our opinion doesn't matter at all, but still...)

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #842 on: July 26, 2019, 02:54:40 pm »

If that is so "clear and distinct," then it would be no problem to impeach him, no? Even if ultimately rejected by the Senate, Dems would have a moral upper hand in clearly proving the crimes, which would come handy at election time. The problem, of course, is that not everything that a prosecutor alleges can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court (or Senate). And both you and I agreed that none of those instances represent impeachable offenses (of course, you and I are not lawyers and our opinion doesn't matter at all, but still...)

We agree that things like asserting executive privilege, lying to the press, and refusing to testify are not criminal, yes.  But I'm referring here specifically to instances where Mueller asserts that Trump's actions *did* meet the statutory threshold for obstruction of justice, but he (Mueller) had no actual recourse beyond documenting those actions.

Should that give the Democrats a moral upper hand?  Hard to say - some people simply aren't aware of the specificity with which Mueller laid out these alleged violations.  Some people will simply believe that Mueller is making them up, and others would hear of them in an impeachment and think that Democrats were making them up.  Still others would hear about them, acknowledge them, and still not favor impeachment because they don't really care if Trump breaks the law as long as he's making liberals and/or Democrats angry, or because they truly feel that Trump is doing great things for the country, and a statutory crime is just not serious enough to warrant disturbing that success.

Point being, let's not kid ourselves by suggesting that it's a simple as "If Trump broke the law, he'd be held accountable.  Therefore because he's not being held accountable, he must not have broken the law."
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RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #843 on: July 26, 2019, 03:10:16 pm »

You need to get off this kick.  It's insulting and condescending.  Nobody here questions your competence or knowledge on the basis of advanced age, and there's no logic in assuming that someone who disagrees with you is uneducated or ignorant.  In short, knock it off.

No way, Jose. If somebody is going to pontificate on a web site the way you do, I expect him to identify at least his location and age. Preferably what he does for a living as well. If he doesn't do that, I have to assume he has something to hide.
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James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #844 on: July 26, 2019, 03:23:55 pm »

No way, Jose. If somebody is going to pontificate on a web site the way you do, I expect him to identify at least his location and age. Preferably what he does for a living as well. If he doesn't do that, I have to assume he has something to hide.

That's weird.
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RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #845 on: July 26, 2019, 03:35:05 pm »

Yes it is. If you're gonna pontificate you need to come clean or you can expect doubts based on your sneaky profile.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #846 on: July 26, 2019, 03:50:46 pm »

Russ, if anyone would be unjustifiably  accused of “sneaky” profile, that would be James. He posts under his real name and in his other, photography-related posts, it is pretty clear he is not a kid. I happen to know where he lives, but it is not mine to disclose. Would you take my word that he is a fine, reasonable, and mature individual with whom we just have an intellectual difference of opinion? I would be grateful if you would.

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #847 on: July 26, 2019, 04:12:20 pm »

We agree that things like asserting executive privilege, lying to the press, and refusing to testify are not criminal, yes.  But I'm referring here specifically to instances where Mueller asserts that Trump's actions *did* meet the statutory threshold for obstruction of justice, but he (Mueller) had no actual recourse beyond documenting those actions.

Should that give the Democrats a moral upper hand?  Hard to say - some people simply aren't aware of the specificity with which Mueller laid out these alleged violations.  Some people will simply believe that Mueller is making them up, and others would hear of them in an impeachment and think that Democrats were making them up.  Still others would hear about them, acknowledge them, and still not favor impeachment because they don't really care if Trump breaks the law as long as he's making liberals and/or Democrats angry, or because they truly feel that Trump is doing great things for the country, and a statutory crime is just not serious enough to warrant disturbing that success.

Point being, let's not kid ourselves by suggesting that it's a simple as "If Trump broke the law, he'd be held accountable.  Therefore because he's not being held accountable, he must not have broken the law."


Trump was set up by Democrats, Hillary and the Obama administration, with the false charges of treasonously conspiring with Russia.    So now the very Democrats who failed at proving this, in fact it was disproved by Mueller, now want to hang him on the charge of obstruction because Trump defended himself against these false charges.  He should have just rolled-over and bit the bullet. 

Leaving aside whether there was obstruction or not, the unfairness of the whole episode of the original accusation is criminal and political, not Trump's defense of himself.  For two years, democrats have been calling Trump a traitor.   A fair-minded and reasonable person who is not on one side or the other would see it in this light.  Now add to it the fact that there have been no charges of obstruction, nor has it been proved.  Well, I just wonder what the independents think about the whole affair?

If the Senate, the DOJ, the Inspector General, and others start an open investigation of what started this whole thing, and it points to Democrat chicanery, it will be in the news all the time at just the right time before the presidential election.  The chicken will come home to roost against the Democrats.  Then the whole game will be up and Trump will be  re-elected on sympathy.  Independents won;t appreciate learning that a palace coup against Trump was started by the Democrats before he even took office in 2017.

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #848 on: July 26, 2019, 04:17:59 pm »

Russ, if anyone would be unjustifiably  accused of “sneaky” profile, that would be James. He posts under his real name and in his other, photography-related posts, it is pretty clear he is not a kid. I happen to know where he lives, but it is not mine to disclose. Would you take my word that he is a fine, reasonable, and mature individual with whom we just have an intellectual difference of opinion? I would be grateful if you would.

I appreciate that - thank you. 

To be crystal clear, I actually post under my married name (yes, I'm male, yes, it's changed, yes there are some slightly odd family circumstances that make it sensible - none of which involve hiding or deception - it's more of a courtesy - and none of which would have any bearing on anything I post here), and no, I don't have any fear of disclosing location (Texas) , age (47), career (entrepreneurial/advertising/marketing) etc. - in fact I've done so in other posts where it's relevant, and if people pay attention, it's pretty easy to draw context clues about my general background.

The thing is, you see those things, and they don't really tell you much, which is why I find the drawing of conclusions based on them to be suspect.  Now we know I live in Texas, but you don't know how long I've been here, or where else I've lived.  You know my age, but you don't know how many years I've lived in any given place, when or where I got my education, or how much time I've spent in any given phase of my career.  You know that my "profession" is entrepreneurial and that I'm on the marketing side, but you don't know if I'm creative or account services, you don't know if I start oil companies or solar companies (neither), or that I've also spent time as a professional high-performance driving instructor (that part's true).

Point being, now that someone knows I'm a 47 year-old guy in Texas, what does that really get you?   Certainly not enough to judge the context of my posts.  That takes a longer period of time to understand. ;)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #849 on: July 26, 2019, 04:25:55 pm »

I give my name and where I live.  I appreciate when others do the same as some important criteria is released.  We get into discussions where nationality and where you live helps define a person's post. Issues about shipping products become apparent as do issues on currency.  Male or female, age, etc all help.  There's also the matter that in a way we are friends, despite the often tough positions we may take against each other.  Writing a post to an avatar with no name, not knowing where that avatar lives, etc. is just weird to me.  I'd like to look you in the eye so to speak and know who you are.  It's also easier to be nasty to an avatar, not so much to a real person with a picture and everything. (Yeah, add your picture.  Why not?)

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #850 on: July 26, 2019, 04:32:22 pm »

I give my name and where I live.  I appreciate when others do the same as some important criteria is released.  We get into discussions where nationality and where you live helps define a person's post. Issues about shipping products become apparent as do issues on currency.  Male or female, age, etc all help.  There's also the matter that in a way we are friends, despite the often tough positions we may take against each other.  Writing a post to an avatar with no name, not knowing where that avatar lives, etc. is just weird to me.  I'd like to look you in the eye so to speak and know who you are.  It's also easier to be nasty to an avatar, not so much to a real person with a picture and everything. (Yeah, add your picture.  Why not?)

Sure, and I appreciate what you're saying.  But what I really know about you and what it means - your beliefs, your history, your experience working the NYC building environment for example - comes from reading and paying attention to what you say over time.  Knowing that you're Alan Klein in New Jersey?  That's sort of meaningless, and for me to assert that just because I can't see your age and location at a glance in your profile, despite having other ongoing conversations with you on a wide range of topics, means that you are not to be trusted or are hiding something is sort of offensive, not to mention unconvincing as a means of debate :)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #851 on: July 26, 2019, 04:38:42 pm »

Sure, and I appreciate what you're saying.  But what I really know about you and what it means - your beliefs, your history, your experience working the NYC building environment for example - comes from reading and paying attention to what you say over time.  Knowing that you're Alan Klein in New Jersey?  That's sort of meaningless, and for me to assert that just because I can't see your age and location at a glance in your profile, despite having other ongoing conversations with you on a wide range of topics, means that you are not to be trusted or are hiding something is sort of offensive, not to mention unconvincing as a means of debate :)
I didn't mean to leave the impression that I find the person dishonest if they provide little info about themselves.  That was not the intent of my post.  I was just trying to get across that it makes conversing more personable.  It also helps to some degree in understanding where people are coming from in interpreting their posts.  For example, if someone starts talking about Brexit, wouldn't it be helpful knowing if they're from Great Britain or Europe or from America?  It helps understand their point of view and make sense of it. 

James Clark

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #852 on: July 26, 2019, 04:46:56 pm »

I didn't mean to leave the impression that I find the person dishonest if they provide little info about themselves.  That was not the intent of my post.  I was just trying to get across that it makes conversing more personable.  It also helps to some degree in understanding where people are coming from in interpreting their posts.  For example, if someone starts talking about Brexit, wouldn't it be helpful knowing if they're from Great Britain or Europe or from America?  It helps understand their point of view and make sense of it.

Yeah, we're on the same page :).   I'm really speaking more to the idea that if someone doesn't list those things on their profile that they're somehow being disingenuous.   Using your Brexit example, I know Rob is a British expat, so I understand that he has a vested interest in Brexit.  I've never looked at his profile, but I know it simply through talking to him.  That's all :)    Didn't mean to sidetrack this way - the original issue was that I have no objection to having my opinions questioned - I welcome it.  I take a dimmer view of my opinions being disregarded on the basis of a technicality ;)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 05:04:59 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #853 on: July 26, 2019, 04:56:43 pm »

Yeah, we're on the same page :) .   I really speaking more to the idea that if someone doesn't list those things on their profile that they're somehow bing disingenuous.   Using your Brexit example, I know Rob is a British Expat, so I understand that he has a vested interest in Brexit.  I've never looked at his profile, but I know it simply through talking to him.  That's all :)    Didn't;t mean to sidetrack this way - the original issue was that I have no objection to having my opinions questioned - I welcome it.  I take a dimmer view of my opinions being disregarded on the basis of a technicality ;)

I'm glad we agree.  One other thing about learning about people.  Often I forget backgrounds.  Maybe it's age. :)  So seeing a portrait, a real name, and a place where they live makes it easier for me to associate that person with what I remember about other facts of who he or she is.  While I'm at it, another hope of mine is to encourage people to add some of their pictures.  This is a photo web site after all.  It helps when discussing styles we like, practices we do, etc.  For example, if someone suggests I try a special HDR program that he uses, it would be helpful for me to see some of his examples.  He may be the best in his field.  But maybe I don;t like the style he creates.  So by seeing some samples, I wouldn't waste time trying his suggestion.  Not because his pictures are bad but rather they're not what I'm trying to do.  Without those pictures, I wouldn't necessarily spend time trying his suggestion.  Life is too short to try everyone's suggestions without seeing examples first.  So pictures are helpful also in defining a photographer's post.  It gives meaning to his photo comments.

Not sure if this is a Republican or Democrat thing. :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #854 on: July 26, 2019, 05:46:12 pm »

Racist:

amolitor

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #855 on: July 26, 2019, 06:15:49 pm »

Not everyone is comfortable with allowing random people on the internet to call SWAT to their house and so, in fora where people might get hot under the collar, hide a few details of their identity.

This is normal, and reasonable.

Demanding someone's personal identifying information, on the other hand, is both weird and a large red flag. Are you planning to SWAT me? Or do you merely wish to enable others to?

(My life is an open book - if you cannot locate my home address in five minutes, you're just bad at Google, but I am more bold, or foolish, than many)
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RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #856 on: July 26, 2019, 07:50:07 pm »

Russ, if anyone would be unjustifiably  accused of “sneaky” profile, that would be James. He posts under his real name and in his other, photography-related posts, it is pretty clear he is not a kid. I happen to know where he lives, but it is not mine to disclose. Would you take my word that he is a fine, reasonable, and mature individual with whom we just have an intellectual difference of opinion? I would be grateful if you would.

Fair enough, Slobodan. As long as you vouch for him, James is okay.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #857 on: July 26, 2019, 08:52:04 pm »

Not everyone is comfortable with allowing random people on the internet to call SWAT to their house and so, in fora where people might get hot under the collar, hide a few details of their identity.

This is normal, and reasonable.

Demanding someone's personal identifying information, on the other hand, is both weird and a large red flag. Are you planning to SWAT me? Or do you merely wish to enable others to?

(My life is an open book - if you cannot locate my home address in five minutes, you're just bad at Google, but I am more bold, or foolish, than many)
I'm not asking for such private information.  How about a first name and a last initial instead of "photobug" or "HOTSHOT" .  I don;t need your address.  How about West Coast or The South or France.  I promise not to send SWAT after you unless you give me a hard time. :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #858 on: July 26, 2019, 09:18:34 pm »

Time to move on from Mueller.  What will the Democratic nominees debate on?  Impeachment?  Obstruction?  I think they'll still talk about Russians.

Meanwhile, the President keeps moving on doing stuff.

Trump wins on building the wall
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/26/us/politics/supreme-court-border-wall-trump.html

Trump wins on blocking illegals from Guatemala.
https://nypost.com/2019/07/26/trump-reaches-landmark-immigration-deal-with-guatemala/

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #859 on: July 26, 2019, 09:21:06 pm »

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