Republicans and democrats don't understand each other

[JoeKitchen]

That fact is true, of coarse, but at that time the president of the US, Bill Clinton and even the prime minister of Israel Rabin was against this Jerusalem Embassy Act.
For 23 years the act was not carried out by presidents Bill Clinton, George Bush and Barack Obama for it would make the peace process between the Palestines and Israel even more difficult.
With Trumps decision to go ahead with the act and the other actions I mentioned it gives a clear signal to the Palestines that the US is chosing the side of Nethanyahu.

How shameful to unreservedly decimate the immeasurable, almost limitless, progress made by three different presidents over 23 years with peace talks by implementing an act of congress. 

I shudder to think that we came so close to ending conflict, but instead chose to throw it all away by recognizing the actual capital of Israel. 

Oh well, back to extending my golf shafts by 5/8 inch and putting on new grips. 

[Alan Klein]

Slobodan is being disingenuous, of course.

The progressive left has written millions of words of material representing many many hours of careful thought and research, and somewhat more hours of less careful thought and research, as he well knows. He may well have heard of Marx's books, of Piketty's book. He may be aware that Elizabeth Warren has a plan for every conceivable thing under the sun, the list goes on and on.

The right, of course, has their own collection of books.

Neither library matters a damn, because what matters is the posters, the catch phrases, the visual moments, and the right has been distinctly, consistently, better at this than the left. Triumph of the Will is a hell of a movie.

Both sides use rental crowds at political rallies, as well as planted provocateurs, question-askers, and protesters. The right does a better job with the signs, the "spontaneous" chants and thrown remarks, and so on. They're simply better at this kind of theater, because they know that it matters more than "Well, I have a plan for whatever the hell your issue is."

This is highly salient to a photography forum, by the way, because the basis of all of this is the visuals. It is all about constructing visuals, and contextualizing them, which is ultimately what photography is about.

The Democrats invented the  visual video political ad with this one used against the Republican candidate implying he would start WWIII and destroy the world.   They're still accusing Republicans with going to start that war forgetting it was Trump who was against the wars Democrats started like Vietnam.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/lbjs-daisy-ad/2014/09/08/717b86c6-3767-11e4-a023-1d61f7f31a05_video.html

[Alan Klein]

That fact is true, of coarse, but at that time the president of the US, Bill Clinton and even the prime minister of Israel Rabin was against this Jerusalem Embassy Act.
For 23 years the act was not carried out by presidents Bill Clinton, George Bush and Barack Obama for it would make the peace process between the Palestines and Israel even more difficult.
With Trumps decision to go ahead with the act and the other actions I mentioned it gives a clear signal to the Palestines that the US is chosing the side of Nethanyahu.

Of course, Trump is playing to Jews and pro-Israel Evangelicals in America who vote for him.  Well, maybe not so much the first as they mostly voted against him.  In any case, what president is the Palestinians waiting for that will make a deal more favorable to their side?  It's not going to happen.  After all, it's been 70 years.  Both sides have to sit down with each other and make a deal between them.  Third parties can only provide a table.  But they have to hammer out the deal.  The longer they wait, the harder to make that deal.  Moving the American embassy should remind the Palestinians that they have more to lose the longer they wait.  So what's holding them up?  Do they expect Israelis to pack their bags and move back to Europe and Russia.  What about the native born Israelis?  Other Arabs care a lot less now that Iran is a headache.  Israel and Saudi Arabia have joined forces (quietly) to counter Iran, a common foe. There are more important fish to fry.  Time's moved on. 

[Rob C]

The Democrats invented the  visual video political ad with this one used against the Republican candidate implying he would start WWIII and destroy the world.   They're still accusing Republicans with going to start that war forgetting it was Trump who was against the wars Democrats started like Vietnam.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/lbjs-daisy-ad/2014/09/08/717b86c6-3767-11e4-a023-1d61f7f31a05_video.html

Whichever way you look at it, you're all effed up exactly the same as the rest of us. Knock it to the left then bounce it to the right, over and over, and nothing much changes.

The Palestinians weren't best delighted to be kicked out of their homes and lands, but the Jews were delighted to look after them for them, so that was all right then, wasn't it? Don't move? Decide to remain? Gotta deal for ya: here's a permanent ticket to second-class!

Your holy city is my holy city, let's link arms and celebrate togetherness. Or dance in the streets. Land borders? Might is right, right? What? You want to play that game too? Shame on you! Put those catapults right back where you found them you rascals! Here's an accurate little explosion, delivered by aircraft courtesy your impartial mediators! Nice? Fair do's don't you think?

You see the mess? Blindness of the sports fan: just pick your team and scream and shout and sing its songs..

[Alan Klein]

Whichever way you look at it, you're all effed up exactly the same as the rest of us. Knock it to the left then bounce it to the right, over and over, and nothing much changes.

The Palestinians weren't best delighted to be kicked out of their homes and lands, but the Jews were delighted to look after them for them, so that was all right then, wasn't it? Don't move? Decide to remain? Gotta deal for ya: here's a permanent ticket to second-class!

Your holy city is my holy city, let's link arms and celebrate togetherness. Or dance in the streets. Land borders? Might is right, right? What? You want to play that game too? Shame on you! Put those catapults right back where you found them you rascals! Here's an accurate little explosion, delivered by aircraft courtesy your impartial mediators! Nice? Fair do's don't you think?

You see the mess? Blindness of the sports fan: just pick your team and scream and shout and sing its songs..

Yup.  Blame the Americans.  It's all our fault.  Especially Trump.  He caused it all.  Considering it was the British who helped split up the Middle East into irrational territories after their colonial period that still causes problems throughout that region, isn't it sanctimonious to play the holy one?  Lawrence was British wasn't he?  I'm being unfair.  The entire European colonial era was shameful and a disaster for the people there.  England wasn't the only guilty ones. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... You see the mess?..

Wasn't it you Brits who started that mess, not Americans?

[Rob C]

Of course, Trump is playing to Jews and pro-Israel Evangelicals in America who vote for him.  Well, maybe not so much the first as they mostly voted against him.  In any case, what president is the Palestinians waiting for that will make a deal more favorable to their side?  It's not going to happen.  After all, it's been 70 years.  Both sides have to sit down with each other and make a deal between them.  Third parties can only provide a table.  But they have to hammer out the deal.  The longer they wait, the harder to make that deal.  Moving the American embassy should remind the Palestinians that they have more to lose the longer they wait.  So what's holding them up?  Do they expect Israelis to pack their bags and move back to Europe and Russia.  What about the native born Israelis?  Other Arabs care a lot less now that Iran is a headache.  Israel and Saudi Arabia have joined forces (quietly) to counter Iran, a common foe. There are more important fish to fry.  Time's moved on.

Heysoos, Alam, you have a sense of humour!

So what's holding them up? Are you serious? Negotiate with the squatters who hold the guns and probably the nukes; make a deal to get what back? You gonna give us the houses you built on our internationally-agreed lands?

But yeah, along with humour you have a good idea: send the squatters back to Russia and Europe, but I note that you didn't include those out of the States. Why? Too crowded with migrants already? No desire to have them back? Too radicalised for your tastes today? Tut tut!

You should write tv scripts.

[Alan Klein]

Heysoos, Alam, you have a sense of humour!

So what's holding them up? Are you serious? Negotiate with the squatters who hold the guns and probably the nukes; make a deal to get what back? You gonna give us the houses you built on our internationally-agreed lands?

But yeah, along with humour you have a good idea: send the squatters back to Russia and Europe, but I note that you didn't include those out of the States. Why? Too crowded with migrants already? No desire to have them back? Too radicalised for your tastes today? Tut tut!

You should write tv scripts.

Both states were formed when the Brits threw up their hands having ruled that area for decades.  Then they turned the issue over to the UN.  The two sides immediately started to war with each other.  So now the territory has been decided with subsequent changes due to subsequent wars over territory.  It's an intractable issue.

What practical suggestion do you have? 

[Rob C]

Yup.  Blame the Americans.  It's all our fault.  Especially Trump.  He caused it all.  Considering it was the British who helped split up the Middle East into irrational territories after their colonial period that still causes problems throughout that region, isn't it sanctimonious to play the holy one?  Lawrence was British wasn't he?  I'm being unfair.  The entire European colonial era was shameful and a disaster for the people there.  England wasn't the only guilty ones.

The entire situation was - and still is - a disgrace. Colonialism was ever a double-sided sword. That's how Europe created America. That's why you have colour problems; that's also how we spread the concept of legal systems and democracy; that's how the biggest sub-continent in the world has the most lengthy and most used rail system; pity it can't seem to afford to keep it in great condition. The same can make its own nukes but allow child labour and prostitution and rape on public transport to run wild; religious nationalism now holds political power; so much for the heritage of democracy, schools and legal processes bestowed by its "conquerors"!

Play the holy one? Moi? Far from it: I just write the messages on the wall for you to read and perhaps see realities from different angles rather than just your local prescribed one. Sanctimonious? I told you you had a sense of humour!

[Rob C]

Wasn't it you Brits who started that mess, not Americans?

No argument from me; my concern here is with how to fix what got broken.

:-)

[Alan Klein]

The entire situation was - and still is - a disgrace. Colonialism was ever a double-sided sword. That's how Europe created America. That's why you have colour problems; that's also how we spread the concept of legal systems and democracy; that's how the biggest sub-continent in the world has the most lengthy and most used rail system; pity it can't seem to afford to keep it in great condition. The same can make its own nukes but allow child labour and prostitution and rape on public transport to run wild; religious nationalism now holds political power; so much for the heritage of democracy, schools and legal processes bestowed by its "conquerors"!

Play the holy one? Moi? Far from it: I just write the messages on the wall for you to read and perhaps see realities from different angles rather than just your local prescribed one. Sanctimonious? I told you you had a sense of humour!

OK. So we all play a part.  None of us have clean hands. But what practical solution do you see to the Palestinian-Israeli situation? 

[Rob C]

Both states were formed when the Brits threw up their hands having ruled that area for decades.  Then they turned the issue over to the UN.  The two sides immediately started to war with each other.  So now the territory has been decided with subsequent changes due to subsequent wars over territory.  It's an intractable issue.

What practical suggestion do you have?

Practical suggestions? You made a good one yourself. Kick 'em back out and do what your Mr T suggests: repatriate. You see? There's ever a bright side to everyone!

:-)

[Alan Klein]

Practical suggestions? You made a good one yourself. Kick 'em back out and do what your Mr T suggests: repatriate. You see? There's ever a bright side to everyone!

:-)

There were native born Israelis there in 1948, about 1/3 the number of Palestinians.  Plus, there are mostly native born today.  Where would you send those?  Even the rest, where would they be sent?  Russia? Europe?  Who's going to agree to take them.  I asked you for a practical solution.  I don't think that's the one.

[Rob C]

OK. So we all play a part.  None of us have clean hands. But what practical solution do you see to the Palestinian-Israeli situation?

Apart from the one you suggested, all that's left is a modern version of a pox on both your houses. Or, perhaps Uncle Sam could do with Israel what you suggest he do with NATO and Europe: wash his hands of them. But he can't: the political money would vanish and his daughter probably lose a hubby. Heysoos! His resorts might become empty! No. Way.

:-)

[Rob C]

There were native born Israelis there in 1948, about 1/3 the number of Palestinians.  Plus, there are mostly native born today.  Where would you send those?  Even the rest, where would they be sent?  Russia? Europe?  Who's going to agree to take them.  I asked you for a practical solution.  I don't think that's the one.

There you go, defeated before you begin! It's what Iran is banking on.

[Alan Klein]

PS: "Kick 'em out" was tried about 4 times by the Arabs.  Each time they lost more territory.  This reminds be of the Spratly and other South China Sea islands that the Chinese now occupy although about 5 other countries claim it's theirs.  Good luck.  I don't see anyone arguing in the UN about it.  In any case,  what are you doing with the Falklands 8000 miles (13,000km) away from the British Isles?  What is American doing with California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas.  Didn't they belong to Mexico? 

What's the practical solution to Palestine and Israel?

[faberryman]

PS: "Kick 'em out" was tried about 4 times by the Arabs.  Each time they lost more territory.  This reminds be of the Spratly and other South China Sea islands that the Chinese now occupy although about 5 other countries claim it's theirs.  Good luck.  I don't see anyone arguing in the UN about it.  In any case,  what are you doing with the Falklands 8000 miles (13,000km) away from the British Isles?  What is American doing with California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas.  Didn't they belong to Mexico? 

What's the practical solution to Palestine and Israel?

There is no solution that is acceptable to both the Palestinians and the Israelis. That is why there is no agreement, and no impetus to reach one.

[kers]

Of course, Trump is playing to Jews and pro-Israel Evangelicals in America who vote for him. ... Time's moved on.

Time has moved on, but both parties look 2000 years back as a reference point for their actions. (As does Pompeo)
The Palestines look also 70 years back for they lived in a country that other nations gave away to the Yewish people.

The solution must come from both Israel and the Palestines. The playfield however is not very even...
Palestines are killed by 100:1 Isreali
When there was a change for peace the hardliners in Israel found a solution in killing their PM Rabin.
At the moment with Nethanyahu on one side and a weak divided Palestine government on the other side the chance for peace is about ZERO. With the extra support of the US Nethanyahu feels free to do whatever he likes.

[Rob C]

Time has moved on, but both parties look 2000 years back as a reference point for their actions. (As does Pompeo)
The Palestines look also 70 years back for they lived in a country that other nations gave away to the Yewish people.

The solution must come from both Israel and the Palestines. The playfield however is not very even...
Palestines are killed by 100:1 Isreali
When there was a change for peace the hardliners in Israel found a solution in killing their PM Rabin.
At the moment with Nethanyahu on one side and a weak divided Palestine government on the other side the chance for peace is about ZERO. With the extra support of the US Nethanyahu feels free to do whatever he likes.

Also, the muscle is leagues apart, with or without the US.

It reveals again the futility of the nuke as a useable weapon, especially in the case of Israel: her enemies are too close to home. It can only figure, in this instance, as victory by suicide. I don't think Israel is quite that daft.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Ahmmm... another catchy visual about hypocrisy: